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+--- Thread: Figuring Finn (/showthread.php?tid=2021)
RE: Figuring Finn - Nanno - 01-21-2017
It's been too cold to drive these last couple of days, but we've been putting Finn through his circus tricks on the back patio. Phil had a very nice time with him this morning and Finn even jumped through the hula-hoop for Phil! Phil hasn't been able to get Finn to do this trick in a very long time--at least a year.
I played with Finn this afternoon as well. Cuzco had just finished his supper and left quite a lot of it on the patio floor, so Finn was very distracted by it. I could get his attention if I walked over to him, but I couldn't call him away from across the patio. So I got the riding whip out and tapped it on the ground a couple of times to let him know I meant business. He came right over and did the jump I'd set up. Every time he jumped in the direction of the spilled alfalfa pellets, though, he made a beeline for them. No wonder this boy is fat! All he thinks about is food! Anyway, after a few tries I was able to keep his attention on me through several repetitions of the jump and several leaps through the hula hoop. Then I escorted him over to the pellets and let him eat to his heart's content. I'm encouraged that he's progressing so quickly and that Phil was able to have fun with him this morning.
RE: Figuring Finn - DownUnder Gal - 01-22-2017
Sounds like you're making great progress with Finn!
RE: Figuring Finn - Nanno - 01-23-2017
Finn is definitely coming along and getting that spark of interest back, but yesterday was difficult for him. Petunia was in raging heat, and Finn had a very hard time concentrating on Phil or I for more than a minute at a time. He would quick do a trick, then race over to the gate to stare at Petunia. If the bucklings were anywhere near her (and they usually were), it was hard to draw him away. Same thing when we went for our walk later on. Finn was busy guarding Petunia from those horny little bucks and it was hard to convince him to leave her side even for a few seconds. If a buck came sniffing around her in his absence he would drop everything and race over to pummel him. Still, even with all the distraction he showed a lot of improvement over what he was a week ago. We didn't hassle him too much while he was so distracted. We recognize a losing battle when we see one and we kept our lessons very short and easy.
RE: Figuring Finn - Nanno - 01-25-2017
Finn is transforming right back into his old eager-to-please self! I haven't been able to drive him recently because of the windy, cold weather, but either Phil or I has been able to work with him on his tricks every day. He's doing very well and is putting his heart into it again. Yesterday Phil called to him while on our walk and Finn came racing over. When asked, he balanced on top of an 8-inch diameter well-head pipe and spun a circle without jumping down or losing interest. I'm happy to report that Finn's tail is wagging again!
RE: Figuring Finn - DownUnder Gal - 01-25-2017
That's fantastic news Nanno. So, in a nutshell, can you summarise what you thought the problem was? Boredom with treats combined with inadvertently mis-timed aids/cues?
RE: Figuring Finn - Nanno - 01-25-2017
I know we're not done working through this issue yet. The real test will be when we start driving regularly again (hopefully I can get him out sometime next week). But yes, changing up the treats definitely made a huge difference. Finn actually likes animal crackers again now that he has some variety. I think he was mostly just bored of having the same thing all the time.
Finn had also been allowed to get away with not paying attention if he didn't want to. I'm not as "nice" as Phil in that regard. I figure these goats get almost 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to do whatever they want. Surely they can spare me a few minutes of undivided attention. If Finn turns his back on me and walks away, I'm going to clap my hands or swat him on the behind to get his attention and let him know he's being rude. If he continually turns his attention on something else, I'll get the whip out and slap the ground to let him know he needs to look at me. Once Finn knew he was not allowed to walk away, his lackadaisical attitude subsided and he started showing a lot more interest in what he was actually supposed to be doing. He quickly realized he was having more fun when he paid attention than when he was allowed to wander around distracting himself. I feel like a mom prying her bored, fat kid away from his video games. He doesn't even know how bored he is until he's "forced" do something fun!
I'm pretty sure mis-timed aids is a large part of Finn's sourness toward driving. This is my fault. We did very well in summer because Phil and I could not drive at the same time so I was able to walk beside Phil and give lessons as we went along. We also practiced several times a week so everyone was tuned up. Then we took a long break from driving during the fall and Phil and Finn both got out of practice. When we started back up again it was sporadic so there was no chance to get the right feel back. When we started driving the boys single, I was concentrating on Sputnik and didn't give Phil and Finn the attention they needed. In hindsight, I know Phil needed help remembering how to time his aids and apply them appropriately. Phil and his goat got off on the wrong foot and I think it soured Finn to driving within 2-3 sessions. This is why I'm taking over Finn's driving training for now. Phil can practice driving Sputnik with me walking behind until he gets the feel of things. Young as he is, I think Sputnik will be a good teacher. He's very soft to the aids and he doesn't get flustered, confused, or spooked as easily as Finn. The last time they drove, Phil and Finn got locked in one of those vortexes where Finn did something unexpected, then Phil did the wrong thing to correct it, then Finn got flustered and confused, then Phil got even more flustered and confused and so on until they were both angry and frustrated with each other and with driving. Hopefully now that Finn is speaking to us again I'll be able to re-school him in a way that is fun and easy for him. I want him to look forward to driving, not dread it.
RE: Figuring Finn - Nanno - 01-25-2017
^ Sorry, not exactly a nutshell, is it!?
RE: Figuring Finn - DownUnder Gal - 01-25-2017
No - more like a banquet - but provided great insight
RE: Figuring Finn - HunterImagery - 01-26-2017
I'm really enjoying this thread! Thanks for sharing your experiences. Three of my boys are turning two this month and are suddenly way more perceptive to what I want out of them and are all of a sudden willing to please (most of the time at least! haha). I travel a lot for work and I think my goats suffer from the inconsistencies between how I do things when I'm home and how my wife does things while I'm away. As of now I've been home for almost two straight months and reading your experiences with Finn makes me wonder if just the stability alone caused the positive change in behavior in my goats.
RE: Figuring Finn - Nanno - 01-26-2017
I'm glad you're enjoying it! I hope it's helpful. I definitely like to analyze things in detail and writing it all down helps me process it in my own mind and also helps me keep track of both progress and setbacks, what worked and what didn't. I've found that inconsistency often results in confusion, and confusion is the biggest enemy of training. Even the most inefficient training technique will work as long as it's consistent. Phil and I have had to work together recently so that we don't give Finn conflicting signals in his training. Maybe if you and your wife work together while handling the goats you can sync up they way you interact with them so that your goats aren't accidentally being trained differently in your absence.
Phil had a great time with Finn on the patio this morning. Phil is thrilled that Finn is happily leaping through the hula-hoop now. Phil hasn't been able to interest Finn in that trick for at least a year. A lot of folks think teaching circus tricks is a silly waste of time (and maybe it is), but I find it's a great way to teach a goat to "learn how to learn". It helps them tune into our voices, teaches the principles of positive reinforcement, lengthens their attention span, and it's a lot of fun for the goats. It's also fun to show off to folks who don't know how smart goats truly are.