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RE: Goat Diaries Blog by Alexandra Kurland - Nanno - 03-21-2018
So here's one thing that bothers me... I read this blog entry yesterday and it's troubling because it makes clicker training sound very non-versatile. Alexandra tells a story of watching a fellow trainer work a Thoroughbred in a field on a longe line. Here's the part that bothers me:
This trainer knew I was exploring clicker training. She didn’t get it. What could clicker training do for her that she didn’t already have the skill to get from a horse? So she asked me what I would do if someone drove up with a horse trailer and unloaded the horse she had just been working with into the hay field. As a clicker trainer, what would I do?
I hadn’t been teaching clicker training very long at that point. I was still in the early stages of figuring things out. I didn’t have a good answer for her. Now I do. The answer is I wouldn’t unload that horse into the hay field. If I did, I would have ended up using management tools that would have looked pretty much like the session I had just watched her give the thoroughbred out in his paddock.
This bothers me because a sound training system should be applicable in any management situation. I live out west where many people keep horses on big ranches with no facilities at all--no barns, no corrals, no fences except the barbed wire perimeter. If you want to train a horse, the only tools you have to work with are the ones you bring with you. I trained several horses when we lived out in Lake City, CO where the only thing we had was a 100-acre field where we paid pasture board. Only two of the horses were mine and the rest belonged to other people who shared rent on the pasture. This was typical of the ranch boarding situation in that area. You rented a pasture and that's all you got. Horse shelter came in the form of trees at one end of the field. It disappoints me that Alexandra would choose not to train horses at all rather than use alternative methods required in different settings. She needs to understand that not all horse owners have the luxury of being able to work out of stalls, barns, arenas, and other controlled settings. Many of her lessons are very tailored to having the "right" set-up, and this can be very limiting for those of us who don't have that set-up.
My horses have never even seen the inside of a barn or stall until last weekend when I took Jet to the Rocky Mountain Horse Expo for a trail obstacle competition--that was his first experience having to spend the night in a stall and he took it in stride like he tends to take most things. I started Jet in Lake City during those pasture boarding days and he's turned out to be a wonderful, reliable, unflappable horse. He helped pull my carriage for two summers when we lived in Lake City and he was only three and four years old those summers. I trained he and my mare to ground drive and drag logs in that 100-acre pasture, even with all the other loose horses running around. During my first summer operating the carriage business, I moved my horses to a much larger 400-acre pasture, but I never had to worry about whether I could catch them. They loved their job and usually came running when they heard my truck coming up the drive. If they didn't, it meant they were too far away to hear the truck and I had to drive out to them. But they never ran away when they saw me coming, which tells me they loved their job and they loved being with me. A horse who lives with buddies in a 400-acre pasture will never be caught unless he wants to be.
The point is, I think Alexandra needs to get over her hangups about alternative training methods and be a bit more open-minded. A horse can be trained using different methods and still be happy, enthusiastic in his work, and mentally sound. I used longe lines, whips, bits, halters, pressure-release, and other tools to show the horse what I wanted, and I rewarded him for a job well-done. The key was that we understood each other, not necessarily which precise language and tools we used to get there. The training should suit the situation. If the training can't be adapted to alternative set-ups, then we have a problem.
RE: Goat Diaries Blog by Alexandra Kurland - Nanno - 03-22-2018
Yesterday and this morning Phil and I worked on targeting with Finn and Sputnik. Phil was working with Finn on the Patio and Sputnik was hanging his head over the gate, so I worked with Sputnik on the target from across the fence. He was a champ and he didn't even try to touch it with his mouth--only his nose. I asked for a harder reach by holding the target behind him. He didn't want to take his feet off the edge of the patio though, so he practically turned himself inside-out to stretch his neck upside-down and backwards so he could get his nose into position without moving his toes. He succeeded, but I wanted him to move his feet. So I held the target just a little further back and a little higher up. That was it. Sputnik wasn't having it. He grabbed the stick in his mouth and moved the target closer so he could touch it without changing position. What a funny goat! It wasn't what I was going for but I had to applaud his cleverness. And he did still touch the target so he got a click and a treat.
Finn is a little slower on the targets but I think that's because he's not yet associating the click with a behavior well-done. Sputnik knows exactly what the click means since I've been using it for his "come" lessons since last summer. But I think he's beginning to understand and once he does things will come easier for him. I practiced targets with Finn in the morning and Phil did them in the afternoon. By afternoon, Finn tried using his mouth on the stick to lower the target for himself just like Sputnik had done. It was a one-time thing yesterday, but this morning when I worked with Finn he tried that trick several times when he thought I was holding the target too far away. He'd grab the stick in his mouth and try to move the target toward him, whether by pulling the stick downward or sideways. I'm going to have to watch it with Finn. His lazy streak makes it easy for him to train us instead of the other way around, and he'll figure out how to get treats out of us for putting in as little effort as possible.
Sputnik is great with the target and I'll bet I can teach him to fetch before long. But his biggest problem is leading. He's great on a leash--no problems there. But when I reach out to take hold of his collar directly he pulls like a freight train and tries to get away from me. I think it goes back to the old "don't touch my skin" problem. I've generally avoided this whole fiasco by using a leash when we want to go anywhere. But sometimes around home I need to take his collar to guide him around a gate or something and I need to be able to do this without getting dragged off my feet. So this morning I started by giving a click and treat just for standing still while I touched his collar. We got that down after about two tries. So then we had to take a step without hauling off. He hauled off a few times, but I rewarded for little obediences and it didn't take long for him to start getting it. I took a couple of breaks in there, but soon I was able to walk him around the patio by the collar without being dragged. I think if I spend a little time on this each day it won't be long before we can apply it to the Great Outdoors. Sputnik may never love being touched, but I know he can learn to control his instinct to flee from it.
Contrast to Finn to stood groaning in pleasure with his eyes closed while I scratched and rubbed him all over from head to tail. This is what Finn likes--stand still and let the humans do everything for you. If Finn were a person, he would be the guy lying on a couch surrounded by beautiful women fanning him with palm branches and dropping grapes in his mouth.
RE: Goat Diaries Blog by Alexandra Kurland - Sanhestar - 03-22-2018
there is a smart trick to change target presentation.
Prepare the change of target "location" with your feeding position.
This is a bit tricky and you need to plan a bit in advance.
Say, you presented the target directly in front of the animal and you want it to move its head to the side. So, after presenting the target and clicking for touching it, feed so that the head is already slighty turned into the direction you will present the target the next time.
It's not lazyness, this is lumping the criteria in too big a step and you get unwanted behaviour - also called garbage - intertwined with the wanted behaviour.
RE: Goat Diaries Blog by Alexandra Kurland - Nanno - 03-22-2018
Makes sense. Also, thanks for clarifying "slin-slicing" earlier. "Thin-slicing" makes so much more sense.
So Sputnik is already following a tennis ball target that I roll across the patio. Now I want him to go back to the mouth thing so he learns to pick it up and fetch it to me!
Phil and I take two walks every day, and we had our first right after lunch. Finn has learned to run away whenever Phil approaches him with a halter ("Oh no! I have to leave the herd!") So I suggested that Phil work on haltering Finn for every walk so he doesn't learn to associate the halter with having to leave home. After Phil got Finn haltered, Finn refused to speak to Phil for the first half of our walk and wouldn't come when called or take treats from him. But by the end Phil won him over and they were buddies again.
Meanwhile, I worked on touching Sputnik's collar from time to time while we walked. He was much improved after this morning's lesson and I was even able to stop him and direct him by the collar with only a couple of relapses into pulling away. I also haltered Sputnik for this walk because, like Phil, I need to make sure I don't get into the habit of only haltering when we have to leave home and do work. We might do any number of fun things in a halter too!
RE: Goat Diaries Blog by Alexandra Kurland - Nanno - 03-22-2018
Phil haltered Finn for this afternoon's walk and wasn't shunned. In fact, Finn had a marvelous time and ran to Phil with his tail wagging every time Phil called, and he jumped on logs and did all kinds of tricks during our walk. Phil worked on getting Finn to target for a while on the back patio and was having some success, but not great. Phil sees how quickly Sputnik catches on and he wants to push Finn to do the same things, but Finn isn't the same type of learner and, as you have pointed out Sabine, he needs more and smaller steps to stay interested in the activity.
I discovered with Sputnik this morning that it's harder for a goat to find an object on the ground than to find one held above his head. Horses and dogs are more tuned to the ground while goats, being browsers, are more aware of what's above them. It took Sputnik several tries to find the target when I held it on the ground. I had to lower it by increments until he knew to even try looking for it below his nose. Phil didn't see that lesson I had with Sputnik, so he took the target and plunked it right on the ground in front of Finn and tried to get him to find it. It didn't work and Phil wasn't taking enough small steps to make it happen. At least Finn is not easily frustrated like Sputnik can be. He just stood there and looked at Phil and chewed his cud. He was perfectly content to stand there all day and watch Phil fiddle around with that silly stick. I encouraged Phil to raise the target and eventually he did get Finn to take notice, but it wasn't going as quickly as Phil liked. I took over for a bit and was able to get Finn to touch the target on the floor and even stand up on his hind legs and touch it--a movement that had eluded Phil too. So Finn definitely has it in him, but Phil needs to learn how to be patient. Phil also needs to keep in mind that clicker training is completely new to Finn, so he's learning more than one thing at once right now. Sputnik knows what that click means so he's able to connect the dots much quicker.
Sputnik is also way more food motivated than Finn. Finn is a picky treat-taker. Usually he doesn't want anything but peanuts. Today he wouldn't touch the peanuts. Instead he wanted animal crackers, which usually he's pretty uninterested in. It would be nice if we could find a treat Finn really loves. Even when I'm feeding "junk food" off the back porch to all the goats, Finn will crowd around and push everyone out of the way, but when it comes to actually eating things like popcorn, potato chips, bread, crackers, or cookies Finn spits them back out more often than he eats them. I don't even know why he bothers to race over as energetically as he does--pure curiosity I suppose. Sputnik inhales practically anything I shove at his face, so training him to work for it is very easy.
Sabine, what does one do with a goat that is fairly indifferent to food treats? I feel like that is one of the biggest parts of Finn's low interest in learning new things--if food is "just ok," there's not much in it for him. Today I encouraged Phil to verbally praise Finn and rub him in addition to food treats because Finn seems to respond as well to those things as to food, and maybe the "three-pronged approach" to reward might make more of an impact. I tend to give lots of verbal praise, and with any animal but Sputnik I usually rub them a lot too. Phil does less of this and Finn is learning better from me, so maybe the verbal and physical praise helps. Of course, in the middle of one of my lessons with Finn today he got bored and laid down on my feet, so while he might do a bit better for me, I'm still not overly impressed with his enthusiasm for training.
RE: Goat Diaries Blog by Alexandra Kurland - Sanhestar - 03-22-2018
you all make great progress.
Let me ask you some more questions about Finn.
How does he take the food during the training? Is he slow to take it and slow to chew it, keeping it between his teeth for a few seconds?
What type of food are you using for training? How "full" is he when training? How big are the treats?
Rubbing and scratching can be used as a re-inforcer but keep in mind that touch is not always rewarding but can also be aversive when the individual is not on the mood for physical interaction and/or the scratching doesn't feel comfortable/another body is more itchy. You need to pay much more attention to the animals body signals when rewarding with touch.
Verbal praise is a secondary reinforcer and the animal needs to learn to associate the praise with something good that follows. until then it's only noise.
"Indifference" to food can have several causes:
- animal is satiated
- food has no high value
- animal has stress and can't eat. I read a nice example a while back: when you sit down for dinner and your house catches on fire you won't finish dinner but put out the fire first.
- animal is frustrated with the training criteria - and therefore develops stress
- animal is frightened (again, stress) or really fearful
- physical issues: teeth, health
With goats I would also look at how your hands smell - I have several goats that will not take treats after I got a lot of saliva on my hand from feeding, especially when I train several goats at once and switch between goats.
Not having seen Finn and Phil working together I would still go with "criteria too high/unclear" and Finn is honest enough to not muddle through somehow just to get treats but to communicate "I don't understand this/this doesn't make sense to me right now"
Phil learning: play clicker games with HIM.
Look for small things in your household (marbles, beads or small food treats for humans like raisins, peanuts, chips, etc.) to use as reward.
Find small objects, like toy cars, match boxes, pencils, dice etc.
Take a clicker, the treats, the objects and define a small task that you teach Phil with just using the clicker.
F.e.
Props: two toy cars, a flat surface of about 25 x 25", a clicker
Task 1:
Learner has to roll one car for 10" forward
Task 2:
Learner has to roll car 1 in a circle around car 2
Task 3:
Learner has to put car 2 on top of car 1
You can also use match boxes or other items that can be stacked.
You both will learn a lot.
Let Phil make up his own tasks and switch roles.
RE: Goat Diaries Blog by Alexandra Kurland - Sanhestar - 03-22-2018
another thought for Finn, although this is already "higher math" level training.
Think about giving him more control about the training pace. Maybe, especially when Phil is expecting him to learn as fast as Sputnik, he feels pressured.
You can teach - very fast, indeed - the animal to give a "I'm ready" behaviour. In most cases it's resuming eye contact or looking at the target after receiving a treat.
Look for breaking eye contact, staring into space in Finn. Wait for his attention to return to you before asking for the next behaviour/next targeting. He might need this time to process and when you pressure him by presenting the target too soon he will "zone out".
RE: Goat Diaries Blog by Alexandra Kurland - Nanno - 03-23-2018
How does he take the food during the training? Is he slow to take it and slow to chew it, keeping it between his teeth for a few seconds?
Finn usually takes treats fairly slowly with just his lips and chews it kind of slowly as well unless he's really in the mood for the treat. If he's in the mood for it, he takes his food quickly like any other goat.
What type of food are you using for training? How "full" is he when training? How big are the treats?
We usually use whole salted peanuts in the shell (usually Finn's preferred treat if he wants treats at all), or animal crackers which are about the same size as the peanuts only flatter. Sputnik usually prefers the animal crackers. Yesterday Finn wanted animal crackers even though he has rejected them for almost a year now. Go figure! I prefer animal crackers because they're cheaper and they have very little nutritional value. Both of our boys are overweight so this is something I have to consider when feeding goodies. Finn does really like some things like Cheetos and Pringles, but I don't want to encourage his appetite for those foods.
I have no real way to gauge how "full" Finn is when training. Our goats have all night access to hay, and during the daytime they roam over 40 acres of good pasture and brushy browse, so they are never hungry. Almost every goat except Finn keeps an empty "dessert stomach" though.
Rubbing and scratching can be used as a reinforcer but keep in mind that touch is not always rewarding but can also be aversive when the individual is not on the mood for physical interaction and/or the scratching doesn't feel comfortable/another body is more itchy. You need to pay much more attention to the animals body signals when rewarding with touch.
Sputnik has taught me to be very aware of this. But I've never seen Finn decline a good rub or scratch. He seems to always be in the mood for physical contact.
Verbal praise is a secondary reinforcer and the animal needs to learn to associate the praise with something good that follows. until then it's only noise.
All of our goats are conditioned to verbal praise from the time they are little babies. Finn's eyes and ears usually perk up when when someone verbally praises and fusses over him.
"Indifference" to food can have several causes:
- animal is satiated
- food has no high value
- animal has stress and can't eat. I read a nice example a while back: when you sit down for dinner and your house catches on fire you won't finish dinner but put out the fire first.
- animal is frustrated with the training criteria - and therefore develops stress
- animal is frightened (again, stress) or really fearful
- physical issues: teeth, health
I'm pretty sure Sputnik would let the house burn down a little longer so he could grab another bite of food!
I think the second cause--"food has no high value"-- fits Finn's attitude the best. Even in a totally stress-free, non-training time he's usually fairly indifferent to treats. All dozen goats will run over for handouts and Finn runs in with the rest, but then he won't take the food. He'll investigate and take a polite bite or two, but then he usually spits it out or scatters it onto the ground. He's always very hopeful that it will be something he likes, but he's usually disappointed. He's one of the pickiest goats in our herd, and I know it's nothing physical because he can strip an oak tree and crunch acorns with the best of them.
Finn consistently likes grain, but I hesitate to use that for a treat. It's messy, sticky, difficult to handle, and it's too concentrated. Finn is overweight as it is and adding grain to his diet would not be good for him. He doesn't much care for alfalfa pellets or other healthier pelleted feeds. He likes the "good stuff" we feed to the milking mamas. The other problem with using grain is that I always bring some with us when we go driving to give Finn something special for doing a job he doesn't care for. Sputnik seems to enjoy pulling, but Finn dislikes it so the grain is something we reserve as a "special" treat for those times and I don't want to reduce its value by handing it out as an "everyday" treat.
With goats I would also look at how your hands smell - I have several goats that will not take treats after I got a lot of saliva on my hand from feeding, especially when I train several goats at once and switch between goats.
We have dealt with this too. But for Finn it doesn't matter whether we feed from the hand, from a bucket, or on the floor. If he's not interested in taking a treat from the hand, switching to a bucket doesn't help.
RE: Goat Diaries Blog by Alexandra Kurland - Sanhestar - 03-23-2018
what you could try is mixing a bit of grain in between the other treats, so that it keeps being a surprise wether he get's a low value treat or a high value treat.
RE: Goat Diaries Blog by Alexandra Kurland - Nanno - 03-23-2018
That's a good idea. We'll have to see how to include a little bit of grain in a separate compartment so we don't mix it with the other treats but still have access.
I didn't think we'd be able to play today because it's so windy outside, but it calmed down enough that I was able to a little with both Finn and Sputnik in turn. After chasing the rolling ball for a while, Sputnik moved on to going back and forth between two different targets placed 15-20 feet apart. He started off confused by my finger-pointing and I had to walk him back and forth between the two targets, but soon he started to go back and forth on his own. At first he was only going back and forth from one target to the next in turn, but by the end he was in the beginning stages of watching which target I was pointing at and was starting to get it right even if I pointed at the same target 2-3 times in a row. Sometimes the wind blew the ball away where he couldn't see it so it wasn't the most straightforward lesson. Nevertheless he really rose to the challenge and didn't get confused or frustrated when I had to fetch the ball out from under or behind something.
Finn and I had a quiet but good session. He spent all of Sputnik's lesson watching intently from across the gate. One thing Finn is very good at is jealousy. He likes to be the center of attention and he doesn't understand why anyone would spend time with any goat but him. Sometimes I think jealousy is the biggest reason why he takes treats. Today after watching Sputnik he was very eager for both peanuts and animal crackers. We had a slow start with the targets, but after a few simple repetitions we built up to where he would take a step or two in either direction to touch it. Soon I was able to get him to touch it on the ground or stand on his hind legs to reach it. He did well and we quit after a short lesson because I could see his attention wandering. He was tired of treats and he wanted to be scratched and petted.