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RE: Driving Lessons - DownUnder Gal - 01-05-2017
Quick query - what should I do with the traces of Koby's harness when he is dragging around the wagon shafts on the ground? As there's no vehicle to attach them to, should I just tie them to some point on his harness so they are up out of the way? Unfortunately there's no buckle for me to remove them from the breast collar.
RE: Driving Lessons - Nanno - 01-05-2017
I usually wrap the traces around the neck and hook the ends to the neck strap on the opposite side. You can either unbuckle the neck strap and run it through the slot on the trace, or you can run a piece of string through the trace and tie it to the neck strap. If the traces are still too long, take them over the neck again and hook them to the neck strap on their own side. I wish goat harnesses were made with hooks on the hip straps like the work harnesses for horses. They're made specifically for hanging the traces out of the way when you're not hitched up. With that in mind, you could also use a string to tie your traces to the hip strap if you have a ring or buckle on it. Some do and some don't. I think my Hoegger's harness has rings on the hip strap.
RE: Driving Lessons - DownUnder Gal - 01-05-2017
Thanks Nanno. I've been using the rings on the hip strap so far but there's still too much slack in the traces whereby they'll likely become a hazard. I think I'll try the neck strap.
RE: Driving Lessons - Sanhestar - 01-06-2017
(01-05-2017, 03:23 PM)Nanno Wrote: There is a great deal of difference between an animal who is "nerve eating" and one that is simply ignoring you and doing his own thing. I should hope this difference is obvious to anyone attempting to train. Feeding horses to help them calm down in stressful situations such as trailer loading has fallen out of favor with the rise of "horse whisperer" style training, but I think this is a huge mistake. Eating does help a nervous animal calm down. But even a nervous animal should not drag you around or run over top of you to feed his nerves. A goat that does this is merely annoying, but when a horse does this he could seriously injure you! Self-control must be taught so that nerves and instinct don't override safety and good manners. And as a trainer, it is your responsibility to know when your animal is being nervous and when he's just being rude.I agree with the underlying statement that we need to TRAIN an animal as to what behaviour is acceptable and what not. I do no longer agree with the label of "rude", disrespectfull, etc.
If I wait for panic to take over I have already missed several crucial steps in the training and then, often, have to resort to harsher methods to get control back. If I wait, in case of a horse, until the level of discomfort is soo high that the horse can only drag a person and no longer responds to other training cues, than I have missed the steps leading up to that dragging.
This can have happened on that day or weeks, months, years in the past. As my English isn't good enough, I would like to share a link about resurgence and regression as viewed by behavioural therapists and researchers.
https://theclickercenterblog.com/2016/12/02/joy-full-horses-understanding-extinction-part-2/
Even being "rude" is just (not a small word in that context) a behaviour for which the animal hasn't been shown an alternative.
Example: I have a "rude" horse. Meaning, one, that will push over me to get to someplace else. If I'm a negative reinforcement trainer, I will punish the horse for that pushing against me. And luckily, I will have punished hard enough that the horse will never, ever try to enter my space in that manner again.
But, maybe I will need the horse at one point to move closer into my space because it's narrow or I ask him to load into a trailer where it HAS to come closer to me. It will refuse because the punishment of that first pushing was so severe, it still remembers it and does not want to experience this again.
Now, with the horse - as having been taught by me - refusing to enter my space although I need it to do JUST that I will have a hard time overriding that learned experience, that memory of punishment. Most likely, the horse will be labelled either stupid, stubborn or again disrespectfull and will now be punished for NOT entering my space.
This is a classic "damned if you do - damned if you don't" scenario and we can play this in all variations we like. What happens is that the horse will never again be 100% sure of the rules of the game and often will develop an underlying stress level. Or it will learn to only act then asked, never offer any behaviour on its own (learned helplessness) and be therefore labelled "trained", well behaved, etc.
Or I am that type of trainer that isn't as good as placing punishment as exact as needed and my rules will change a little bit depending on the day I have, the level of distractions, etc.
And the horse will pick up on that changing rules that sometimes make pushing against a behaviour that can be succesfull and sometimes not. As long as there is even one sucess in several failed attempts, animals and people will try the sucessfull behaviour again and again - UNLESS they have an alternative (this is where resurgence and regression come into play).
The spiral of low level punishment, stress, "rude" behaviour will begin.
Or I can teach the horse that staying out of my space is sucessfull, more sucessfull than pushing against me. I teach the "polite" alternative of "keep at arms length". I can then teach also "come closer", "move back a little" and "keep your head away from the food".
My ponies are a native breed and eating is lifeblood for them. Because I can't always prevent them from snatching a bite of hay when I take them out of the paddock - this isn't my barn so I have to work around how the stable owners set up the place and they will place the hay bale directly next to the entrance for easy access - I spent enough time battling with the ponies to move away from the hay so that I can close the paddock gate. This was met with more or less resistance.
I have then last year begun to teach an alternative: I have placed a mat on the ground at a position where the pony can stand and wait for a treat while I close the paddock gate (I also can't ask them to turn around, they have to move straight ahead and then wait because the space is too narrow for them to turn - again, not a setup I would have but I can't change it).
It took a while but out of four ponies three will now walk to the mat, ignoring the hay (and in summer the grass ahead) to wait until I closed the gate, walk up to them and click and treat them for waiting politely. They have an alternative behaviour that eliminates the snatching of hay or pulling ahead to the grass that is always, always, always more sucessfull.
Most interestingly, last summer the fourth pony, who has still problems with this setup because he's the lowest ranking and often still a bit hungry, apparently dashed through the half open gate during mucking out (I wasn't there but was told what happened) and set out straight for the next patch of grass. Without a halter this could have been a "nice" chase around the property to get him back.
But, because the stable owners had just renovated, there was a small pile of rectangular old carpet pieces lying around. The pony already new the task of "standing on a mat", saw the carpet pieces, recognized them as a type of mat and walked straight up and onto them without moving farther to the grass. He there waited to be haltered and brought back.
He already has the concept but needs more sucessfull experience (and more eating time) before he can manage to walk past the hay bale. He isn't rude, he often is hungry. With the setup as it is - and we all have to work with what the environment makes possible, I will see this behaviour pop up once in a while. I have found that it will give me insight into his overall well-being. If he had enough to eat, he will walk by. If he is hungry and can profit from additional food, he will stop to eat (and I can then prepare an additional ration for him to eat without being disturbed). He found a way to tell me "I'm hungry".
We ask a lot of our animals, especially the ones that work for us. If I for myself decide that I go out to work hungry (or cold or grumpy or aching) it is MY choice and my choice alone. When I ask an animal to work for me (this is what I have found to be true for me in the last two years) I have to make sure that I take care of its basic needs BEFORE. Because the animal does not have the choice. It has to go out and work wether it's hungry or not. It will go out because we have ways to make them (often with the underlying threat of punishment). I can ignore the signals and cues it will give during the working period that it feels uncomfortable. Well, I should write, "one can" because I no longer can (I might overlook a signal because I can't place it in context) but as soon as I see it, I will incorporate that information.
This is no more or less than I would myself expect of other people to treat me. That they would listen when I say "I can't do this right now, I have to eat a bite/drink a bit/balance myself/find my bearing first, THEN I can do what you want from me!"
I have become even more aware of how easy it is to ride roughshot over an individual since my mother in law had to go living in a nursing home. The nurses are nice enough but because her speach is impaired they tend to treat her as a person who doesn't know what she wants. She still knows what she wants but she can't tell them. And she is too polite, to unsure of her herself to become rude. She simply suffers, her face and eyes telling, how miserable she feels in that moment. They ask her for something that she doesn't want to do and she will reply "OK" because she feels she has no way to communicate that she would rather NOT do this. The nurses hear the work, not the inflection and don't see the subtle change in body language that tell ME that she is uncomfortable, even afraid but feels that she has to suffer through it.
And it is not a hugh thing to accomodate her at that moment. A question about what is wrong will in most cases reveal that she hadn't understood the request because she didn't pay attention, it was spoken too fast and after repeating and a short explanation why, she will again answer "OK" but now with her consent in voice and body language.
I start ranting and want to answer to other parts of your post, so I stop with that now :-)
RE: Driving Lessons - Sanhestar - 01-06-2017
(01-05-2017, 03:23 PM)Nanno Wrote: From reading about your experience with anxiety attacks and anxious ponies, Sabine, I can't help but think that your own nerves are the biggest reason your ponies are not comfortable leaving home. I have never had an anxiety attack myself. I was raised with a great deal of self-confidence and taught from a young age that I don't need to be afraid of things but to figure them out instead. I do my best to train our animals to be the same way. Our emotions translate enormously to our animals, and if we are timid when we train, our animals will be timid as well. In my years of training horses and riders, I've come to learn that anxious people nearly always assume their animals are anxious too and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Also, if we're constantly afraid of traumatizing our animals, we're going to be hesitant and ineffective in our training methods. Training takes confidence, and sometimes it even takes being brave for our animals when we ourselves are tempted to be frightened too--like when me and my horse encountered our first bear.
I did not have anxiety issues earlier in life. This crept up on me in the last years after several accidents around horses (trailer flipping over, almost being trampled in a very stupid situation) and generally being burned-out.
I could no longer be truthfull in my body language, my mind would tell me "nothing to fear" but my body would do its own thing. This has nothing to do with being afraid of traumatizing my animals - I really, really resent that interpretation of my attempts to talk about a way of training that is not based on the threat of punishment.
Believe me, it is no, no, no fun and also out of conscience control when your own body betrays you while your mind knows what to do.
RE: Driving Lessons - LORI - 01-06-2017
(12-11-2013, 09:42 AM)Nanno Wrote: Compare the previous photos to this:
As you can see, we've had to do quite a bit of adjustment in our harness and even our cart to accommodate Cuzco's growth! In the first photos, most of the buckles were on the tightest holes and we had a lot of flapping strap ends. In this photo most of them are adjusted way down near the ends. Our traces, which were on their tightest holes in the first photo, are now on their last holes, and the shafts no longer stick out past Cuzco's chest. We also had to adjust the height of our shafts to keep the cart balanced. It's ok if a cart tips slightly back as this keeps weight off the goat's back, but you don't want to feel as though you're going to get dumped over backwards! Happily, our cart features shafts that can be adjusted for height. The shaft loops can also be lowered as your goat grows.
You'll also notice in this photo that there is a little bit of slight slack in both the tracess and the holdback straps, but no droops. You want just enough slack to allow freedom of movement, but not enough to allow bumping when the cart starts and stops. When you're hitching up, try to adjust your britchen so there is just enough room for you to slide your hand edgewise between the strap and your goat's buttock when the slack is out of the traces. The britchen should be suspended about half-way between the top of the goat's tail and the hock. Any lower and it will chafe. Much higher and it will tickle and bother his tail, and it could even slide upwards when going downhill.
If you use a breastcollar it should be adjusted at about the same height as the britchen. It should be low enough to clear the windpipe, but high enough that it doesn't restrict shoulder movement.
OK! I've seen just enough to be totally intrigued! I totally get your dressage comparisons. What kind of goat is Cuzco? His size (current size) is what I am looking for and I am sold on cart pulling... I have a pony that was going to be used for a cart but he has some issues with bending that we are still working on. I am going to have to stay home more to get this under way.
RE: Driving Lessons - Nanno - 01-06-2017
(01-06-2017, 05:01 AM)LORI Wrote: OK! I've seen just enough to be totally intrigued! I totally get your dressage comparisons. What kind of goat is Cuzco? His size (current size) is what I am looking for and I am sold on cart pulling... I have a pony that was going to be used for a cart but he has some issues with bending that we are still working on. I am going to have to stay home more to get this under way.
Cuzco is an Alpine/Nubian cross I found out in wester NY state. His size was about 38" at the withers, but he's nearly 15 years old and he's probably lost about 2" over the last 2-3 years as his pasterns have begun to drop and his joints have settled.
RE: Driving Lessons - Nanno - 01-06-2017
(01-06-2017, 12:18 AM)Sanhestar Wrote: I did not have anxiety issues earlier in life. This crept up on me in the last years after several accidents around horses (trailer flipping over, almost being trampled in a very stupid situation) and generally being burned-out.
I could no longer be truthfull in my body language, my mind would tell me "nothing to fear" but my body would do its own thing. This has nothing to do with being afraid of traumatizing my animals - I really, really resent that interpretation of my attempts to talk about a way of training that is not based on the threat of punishment.
Believe me, it is no, no, no fun and also out of conscience control when your own body betrays you while your mind knows what to do.
I apologize if I misunderstood. I've gotten the (apparently wrong) impression that you think it's cruel to basically do anything with an animal--correct it, push it out of your way, separate it from its herd or home, put it in a tight space, make it wait for food, or allow it to feel nervous for even a second without removing it from the stressful situation. It's making me paranoid!
I also remembered that discussion we had last summer when you said you were afraid to tell your grandmother that she'd used salt instead of sugar in your cocoa. And never getting over the dentist? That is a lot of anxiety! I'd never have been afraid to speak up about such a thing and I can't even grasp feeling helpless and cowed like that. I've never been treated in such a way that I was afraid to tell someone if something was wrong. Those stories probably colored my impression of you incorrectly it would seem. I apologize for offending you.
RE: Driving Lessons - Sanhestar - 01-06-2017
Well, yes, by now I think it's cruel to do something with an animal WITHOUT properly teaching/training it what I want it to do. I do not think it cruel to do something with an animal. I would not train a shy goat to pack (albeit in steps much, much smaller than any other goat I own) if I thought that. But I will keep the training steps as small as HE needs to be comfortable and able to learn and not as big as I want them to be.
As with regard to the anxiety: yes, looking back at that time in my life, I have been anxious. This might be coming back now.
RE: Driving Lessons - Nanno - 01-06-2017
(01-06-2017, 12:13 AM)Sanhestar Wrote: I agree with the underlying statement that we need to TRAIN an animal as to what behaviour is acceptable and what not. I do no longer agree with the label of "rude", disrespectfull, etc.
If I wait for panic to take over I have already missed several crucial steps in the training and then, often, have to resort to harsher methods to get control back...
Whether we like the term or not, animals fully understand the concept of rudeness and disrespect and it's important for us to speak their language before we can teach them ours. If Cuzco tells Finn to move back from his hay and Finn gives Cuzco the hairy eyeball, he's showing disrespect to a senior member of the herd. Cuzco isn't going to let that stand and Finn gets a solid thrashing. If Sputnik "accidentally on purpose" swipes Finn with a shoulder or horn tip while passing, his intention is to be rude because he's subtly challenging or disregarding Finn's status in the herd without yet engaging in full battle.
Quote:Example: I have a "rude" horse. Meaning, one, that will push over me to get to someplace else. If I'm a negative reinforcement trainer, I will punish the horse for that pushing against me. And luckily, I will have punished hard enough that the horse will never, ever try to enter my space in that manner again.
But, maybe I will need the horse at one point to move closer into my space because it's narrow or I ask him to load into a trailer where it HAS to come closer to me. It will refuse because the punishment of that first pushing was so severe, it still remembers it and does not want to experience this again.
Now, with the horse - as having been taught by me - refusing to enter my space although I need it to do JUST that I will have a hard time overriding that learned experience, that memory of punishment. Most likely, the horse will be labelled either stupid, stubborn or again disrespectfull and will now be punished for NOT entering my space.
"In that manner" is the key phrase here. No, the horse will (hopefully) not enter your space again in that manner, but he will not be afraid to enter your space in another manner. Saying he will be afraid to come close in all circumstances is an incorrect understanding of how a horse's mind works, and it makes the inaccurate assumption that horses are like computers that can be programmed to perform but not to think. It assumes no understanding on the part of the horse and is easily refuted by numerous real-life experiences. In fact, I can't think of a single example among all the horses I've worked with who responded the way you claim.
My most extreme experience was with my first horse, Easter. She was 2 or 3 years old and I was 12 or 13, and we were best of best friends (so I thought!). We would run and play in the pasture, chasing one another, kicking up snow, and snorting like two horses. It was the greatest of fun, but while I ignorantly thought we were playing as equals, Easter was calculating whether she could become the dominant partner in our relationship. Now, in her defense, she was the lowest horse in a herd of about 30, and I've learned since then that the lowest member of a pecking order is also the one most likely to be sadistically mean to anyone who comes after them. Unbeknownst to me, Easter saw me as "the one who came after," and one day she attacked me. I don't mean she ran by and bumped me. I mean she full-out attacked me. I had no way to control her and nowhere to run to. So I picked up a stick and I fairly beat that horse up one side and down the other as she continued to come at me with teeth and front hooves. I beat everything I could reach--head, neck, chest, face, front legs--and I beat her as hard as I possibly could. It was one of the only times in my life that I've been mortally scared by a horse. After she turned away I went after her and beat her on the backside until she was running from me, and then I chased after her until I was satisfied that she was not going to turn on me again. That's the only time I've ever beaten a horse like that and in that moment it had nothing to do with training--it was pure terror and instinct. Soon afterward we both calmed down, I walked over to her and she stood and let me catch her. We left the pasture as friends with the understanding that as long as she never attacked me again I would not attack her either and the incident was closed. There was never any follow-up to retrain her to come into my space. We had arrived at an understanding without having to hash over details, and this is how every horse I've worked with has responded (although never with such drama--I've learned to read horse body language better than I could at 12!).
Not long after the flogging incident I was walking Easter along an icy hilltop when we ran out of powder snow and I began to slide down a sheet of ice. I was trying to keep my balance when I suddenly felt an almighty shove from the back. Easter had pushed me with her head and sent me slithering across the ice. My immediate feeling was that she'd done something mischievous (it was not unusual for her to goose me in the backside when she was nervous or needed attention), but as I fell I looked over my shoulder and saw that she was sliding too--right into the spot where I'd been standing a split second before. If she hadn't shoved me away she would have run over me and probably fallen on me. I got up trembling with the grateful feeling that my horse had just saved my life. I got us into a stupid circumstance and she got us both out unscathed. A horse that will shove you away to avoid falling on you is not afraid of getting close to you, nor is it operating in a state of "learned helplessness" (a term which you are applying incorrectly if you read the psychological definition).
It didn't have to be an emergency for Easter to come close to me. She was a cuddle muffin who loved to come over for rubs and hugs. My closest relationship with any horse was with Easter. She was one I could ride without halter or bridle (even trail rides away from home). We could negotiate a dressage pattern or jump course without so much as a rope around her neck to guide her. Phil called her my "telepathic horse" because all he had to do was think which direction to go and she went there. This is not a horse that has been traumatized or rendered into a state of learned helplessness! I'll never forget jumping on Easter's back on a snowy night in the 400-acre pasture where we kept the horses. I had nothing by which to control her. She could do whatever she liked. And she wanted to run! She took off at full speed after a herd of elk that was grazing on the other side of the meadow. The other horses came with us and we were all running silently together with snow billowing up behind. It was like flying. Easter knew the pasture by heart and she would leap suddenly to clear irrigation ditches that I could not see under the snow. I just held tight to her mane and enjoyed the thrill. We caught up to the elk and chased them over the fence before she slowed down. Afterward she walked me calmly back to my truck. I would never do that on any other horse, but with Easter I knew I was completely safe. Despite our rough start, that was the bond we eventually shared, and neither of us required rehabilitation or retraining to get there.