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+--- Thread: Lost a LGD...questions (/showthread.php?tid=428)
Lost a LGD...questions - SMaxwell - 07-01-2014
Sadly, our good friends lost their LGD last night. I was there with them when he passed at the vet's office. Very sad for everyone and we are all still grieving, he was a Pyrenees / Anatolian and would have only been 2 years old in November. "Teddy" faithfully guarded their dairy goats and was a loving member of their family. The vet is at a loss for what could have taken him. The strange thing is, out friends lost their house dog, an older smaller breed last week. He was found lying on the floor listless and would not get up or even pick up his head. He died at the vet that night. The vet believed he'd had hear issues and had a major heart attack. This was a house dog and never really had any contact with the LGD or the goats and he never went in the pasture.
The very next day, Teddy was found out in the pasture and was also l listless and would not get up or eat. he would occasionally thump his tail or lift his head a little. I cannot give a great history here because I do not have every detail of the vets findings etc, but they took him to the vet and this was a repeat of the exact same symptoms he'd had several months prior, which were immediately reversed with I believe a steroid shot and some anti-biotics. They wormed him also just for good measure. In fact, a year earlier my Anatolian had the same symptoms and he too got better right away with the same treatment. However, Teddy did not improve much and yesterday morning he's stopped drinking, had not eaten for 4 days. They got some water in his mouth with a syringe and he did swallow it. Vet got his blood work back from the lab yesterday morning and everything was normal with his blood work. His breathing had been labored but in the last few days got a lot worse. Yesterday evening my friend had to go somewhere with his daughter and a short time later his wife came over and had checked Teddy and found he'd taken a turn for the worse. By her description I told her he needed to get to the vet right away. We went over and loaded him up and rushed him to the vet. His breathing was very labored, his gums had lost their color and I could tell he was not getting much air at all. A white froth was coming from his mouth. Amazingly he still managed to thump his tail a few times when he saw me. I've seen too much to be very optimistic but was hoping the vet could pull something from his bag of tricks to pull him through. The vet hardly had time to evaluate him and not 3 minutes after we got there Teddy took his last labored breath in a room full of two crying and heartbroken families. The vet tried doing CPR and injecting adrenaline into his heart but he couldn't get any air in with the ventilator...I think his lungs were completely full of froth.
The vet is at a loss. He is going to check on some things with the CSU Vet Dept and try to figure out what happened. The vet did say something about Teddy having lost some weight since he had last been in and he was a little concerned about that. My friends cant afford to pay for an autopsy but they very much want to find out what happened and don't want to risk getting another LGD until they know.
The only thing the two dogs really shared in common was their food, Victor brand, which I am not familiar with but is supposed to be a premium brand. My friend is trying to find a lab who will test the food. They also have another dog which had been eating the same food, a 4 or so year old Spaniel and he is fine, although they have stopped feeding that food just in case.
The vet did mention something about a rare disease where the muscle degenerates, I believe he said degenerative myelopathy. But this is apparently very rare and usually strikes older dogs. This was very sudden and Teddy never really exhibited the symptoms, he was just down one day; suspiciously it was the day after their other dog died. Prior to his Teddy had been healthy, happy, and loved. He was a beautiful dog, about 120 pounds of gentle giant.
Hoping someone here might have some insight as to what may have been going on. I could get more details if need be. Prayers for the family would be appreciated, they really loved both dogs and are devastated. They are at the Doctor today with their youngest child who has been throwing up and having stomach pains ever since Teddy died last night.
Thanks
Scott
RE: Lost a LGD...questions - Teckelhut - 07-01-2014
It sounds like all the classic signs of heart failure. And that can strike at any age. Had that happen to a perfectly healthy (or so I thought)6 year old Border Collie about 11 years ago. And with a 2 year old Akita back in the 80's. Both times it was determined to be a heart attack.
RE: Lost a LGD...questions - SMaxwell - 07-01-2014
(07-01-2014, 10:55 AM)Teckelhut Wrote: It sounds like all the classic signs of heart failure. And that can strike at any age. Had that happen to a perfectly healthy (or so I thought)6 year old Border Collie about 11 years ago. And with a 2 year old Akita back in the 80's. Both times it was determined to be a heart attack.
I wondered that also and the vet said that his heart sounded really good and strong, even when he examined him a few days earlier. In fact, I think he said it sounded good even a few minutes before it slowed down and stopped when we took him in last night. I don't know enough to know if there could be issues that the vet could not pick up on just listening. Are Pyrenees or Anatolians prone to heart issues?
Thanks
RE: Lost a LGD...questions - Teckelhut - 07-01-2014
I have known people and animals that's heart sounded strong up until they just dropped dead. My Uncle is a classic example. And horses in competition that just drop dead with a rider on them. I sure other's have heard of people who had a heart attack that had just been to the Doc and pronounced in good health.
ANY dog can have a heart attack but it seems like the bigger ones are more prone to it.
RE: Lost a LGD...questions - Nanno - 07-02-2014
I'm so sorry about the dog. That's very sad. I hope ya'll figure out what happened.
RE: Lost a LGD...questions - Taffy - 07-02-2014
My heart goes out to all of you over the loss of both dogs. Hugs.
RE: Lost a LGD...questions - Charlie Horse - 07-02-2014
If a dog is big it is more likely to have trouble.
If a dog is pure bred it is more likely to have trouble.
If a dog is loved, it is more likely to have trouble (compared to the neighbor's yappy barking poop machine which will never die).
Sounds like that dog had all 3 strikes against him :o(
RE: Lost a LGD...questions - Teckelhut - 07-03-2014
You know what? I just went back and reread this. When he had the first episode, did they do a full blood work-up on him? That sounds very similar to an auto-immune disorder that Lass had several years back. They were able to fix it with steroids and anti-biotics the first time. But the second time around they could not. She was a Border Collie as well.
RE: Lost a LGD...questions - SMaxwell - 07-07-2014
(07-03-2014, 06:05 AM)Teckelhut Wrote: You know what? I just went back and reread this. When he had the first episode, did they do a full blood work-up on him? That sounds very similar to an auto-immune disorder that Lass had several years back. They were able to fix it with steroids and anti-biotics the first time. But the second time around they could not. She was a Border Collie as well.
You must be a vet....at least in hobby maybe. My bet is you are probably right on. That was added to the list of possibilities by their vet a few days after. I guess without autopsy and further testing, they could not afford, they will never know for sure. The vet did assure them that it was nothing they did and nothing about their property or environment, which made them feel a lot better. After they heard this they adopted an eleven month old Pyrenees, Anatolian, Akbash from Aspen. He was raised with goats but also was a bit on the spoiled side as far as being allowed in the house etc, so they are trying now to re-acclimate him to pasture life.
Thanks
(07-03-2014, 06:05 AM)Teckelhut Wrote: You know what? I just went back and reread this. When he had the first episode, did they do a full blood work-up on him? That sounds very similar to an auto-immune disorder that Lass had several years back. They were able to fix it with steroids and anti-biotics the first time. But the second time around they could not. She was a Border Collie as well.
I will ask them if they did a full workup on him the first time. Would an auto-immune issue even show up on a standard blood screen?
RE: Lost a LGD...questions - Teckelhut - 07-07-2014
(07-07-2014, 08:06 AM)SMaxwell Wrote:(07-03-2014, 06:05 AM)Teckelhut Wrote: You know what? I just went back and reread this. When he had the first episode, did they do a full blood work-up on him? That sounds very similar to an auto-immune disorder that Lass had several years back. They were able to fix it with steroids and anti-biotics the first time. But the second time around they could not. She was a Border Collie as well.
You must be a vet....at least in hobby maybe. My bet is you are probably right on. That was added to the list of possibilities by their vet a few days after. I guess without autopsy and further testing, they could not afford, they will never know for sure. The vet did assure them that it was nothing they did and nothing about their property or environment, which made them feel a lot better. After they heard this they adopted an eleven month old Pyrenees, Anatolian, Akbash from Aspen. He was raised with goats but also was a bit on the spoiled side as far as being allowed in the house etc, so they are trying now to re-acclimate him to pasture life.
Thanks
(07-03-2014, 06:05 AM)Teckelhut Wrote: You know what? I just went back and reread this. When he had the first episode, did they do a full blood work-up on him? That sounds very similar to an auto-immune disorder that Lass had several years back. They were able to fix it with steroids and anti-biotics the first time. But the second time around they could not. She was a Border Collie as well.
I will ask them if they did a full workup on him the first time. Would an auto-immune issue even show up on a standard blood screen?
No. Not a Vet. Just a person with VAST experience with dogs and have rescued so many over the years with medical issues.
Yes. An Auto-immune disorder would show up in a standard test because the white blood cell count would be off the charts.
What happens is that the body sees itself as a foreign body and starts attacking itself. In some cases its mild and can actually be controlled by suppressing the immune system with medication (Prednisone plus other meds). Dogs can live this way but it opens them up to other diseases because the immune system is suppressed. Its the same as with AIDS and HIV in humans. The disease is not the actual killer. Its the other diseases they can get from a suppressed immune system. Most of those patients actually die from pneumonia in the end because even just a common cold could kill them.
I am still leaning towards a heart attack though. The foaming at the mouth and the greying gums is classic signs. Although other things such as poisoning and AID would do the same. However a standard blood panel would show renal failure due to poison or a high WBC count from AID.