Guardian propspects

[seth s]

Good afternoon,

Looking at getting a guardian animal, and still deep in the research phase of it.  Went to a Llama school recently and also have been asking on FB LGD forums about LGD ownership.  I got a few good answers, but also a lot of breeders trying to sell me pups and of course the trolls that exist in every FB group.  We have lately had a huge increase in coyote activity, and normally we shoot on sight and also hunt them, but all the clear cutting near our property for the new homes has made it impossible to call in coyotes as there is always noise and movement off property that keeps them away in those times. Last week we lost our one of our call ducks and her duckling's and this Sunday a turkey.  Our neighbor to the right adopted a livestock aggressive dog that gets out quite frequent.  We have a 5' fence with a strand of barbed wire across the top, and 3 strands of hot wire on each side.  Fences can fail, power can fail and looking at getting another layer of security.  Still on the fence on which type of livestock guardian breed to get or a Lllama.  If you can, please provide any pros and cons that you have had with LGD's or Llamas as guard animals.  We have three labs, 15 goats and about 200 poultry birds.

[Nanno]

We did all that research years ago and ended up going for the livestock guardian dogs. I considered a burro but was concerned about founder (we have a very lush property). I also considered a llama, but we have bears and mountain lions in addition to coyotes and after a neighbor's llama got killed by a bear we decided that a llama wouldn't be enough. So we settled on dogs, which was probably my least favorite option but they have worked out well as far as keeping predators away. They bark a LOT which can be very annoying but it means nothing sinister comes near our property to even salivate over our goats. We also had a lot of trouble with one of our dogs roaming the countryside. We ended up buying a Garmin tracking collar that would alert us when he left the 300 yard radius we gave him. It shows us where he is on our handheld device and then we can beep him to come back. If he doesn't respond we can up the stakes by zapping him until he comes back. It took some training time, but eventually he learned to stay home. And if he ever leaves home (pretty rare these days), we can recall him immediately with a single buzz tone. I haven't had to zap him in ages. It was expensive but well worth the money.

We have a Pyrenees/Australian Shepherd cross and an Anatolian Shepherd. I don't like the long hair on the Pyr cross. It's way too much for our climate. She does well in the winter but she's miserable all summer and tries to cool herself by laying down under my trailer or going in the horse trough. I've almost run over her a couple of times when I didn't see her under the trailer, and she ruins the water if she climbs in the trough. Since I'm on a cistern this is a huge pain. I ended up giving her a special paddle pool to lay in. I won't get another dog with hair that long.

One thing to watch out for since you have other dogs is to make sure your LGD gets along with them, and that your other dogs don't ever mess with your livestock. My neighbors had LGD's to guard their goats and Blue Heelers to work their cattle. One time a Heeler got in with the goats and tried to herd them and the LGD killed it. This could happen with a llama too if your labs get in with the goats.

Good luck!

[seth s]

We did all that research years ago and ended up going for the livestock guardian dogs. I considered a burro but was concerned about founder (we have a very lush property). I also considered a llama, but we have bears and mountain lions in addition to coyotes and after a neighbor's llama got killed by a bear we decided that a llama wouldn't be enough. So we settled on dogs, which was probably my least favorite option but they have worked out well as far as keeping predators away. They bark a LOT which can be very annoying but it means nothing sinister comes near our property to even salivate over our goats. We also had a lot of trouble with one of our dogs roaming the countryside. We ended up buying a Garmin tracking collar that would alert us when he left the 300 yard radius we gave him. It shows us where he is on our handheld device and then we can beep him to come back. If he doesn't respond we can up the stakes by zapping him until he comes back. It took some training time, but eventually he learned to stay home. And if he ever leaves home (pretty rare these days), we can recall him immediately with a single buzz tone. I haven't had to zap him in ages. It was expensive but well worth the money.

We have a Pyrenees/Australian Shepherd cross and an Anatolian Shepherd. I don't like the long hair on the Pyr cross. It's way too much for our climate. She does well in the winter but she's miserable all summer and tries to cool herself by laying down under my trailer or going in the horse trough. I've almost run over her a couple of times when I didn't see her under the trailer, and she ruins the water if she climbs in the trough. Since I'm on a cistern this is a huge pain. I ended up giving her a special paddle pool to lay in. I won't get another dog with hair that long.

One thing to watch out for since you have other dogs is to make sure your LGD gets along with them, and that your other dogs don't ever mess with your livestock. My neighbors had LGD's to guard their goats and Blue Heelers to work their cattle. One time a Heeler got in with the goats and tried to herd them and the LGD killed it. This could happen with a llama too if your labs get in with the goats.

Good luck!

Thanks for the feedback.  we have lots of acreage, but unfortunately its narrow and sound does travel.  The great pyrnesses is off the list.  We are currently looking into Kuvaz, Akbash, and karachans.  Two different ladis that live locally are going to allow us to check out their Kangals and Anotlians.  Luckily my labs are really docile with the livestock and my youngest lab plays with the kid goats.  So that may be a problem in the future with a LGD.  Great pointers and thanks!!!!

[Nanno]

If sound is an issue, any livestock guardian dog or donkey will be problematic. Our Anatolian (a.k.a. Kangal--they're practically the same breed) is the one that howls/barks the most at night. Our Pyr cross usually only barks when there's actually something there. However, they are both very LOUD, and at night there's almost always something there to bark at. The predators don't come close, but that's because the dogs bark to warn them away. If the dogs didn't bark I'm not sure how useful they'd be. Llamas are quiet and I hear if you find a really good one they will keep coyotes and domestic dogs away but are not good on other types of predators. With llamas you have to be careful of your own dogs. I don't think they learn to "adopt" any dog--even the ones you own. But I don't really know a lot about llamas.

[seth s]

If sound is an issue, any livestock guardian dog or donkey will be problematic. Our Anatolian (a.k.a. Kangal--they're practically the same breed) is the one that howls/barks the most at night. Our Pyr cross usually only barks when there's actually something there. However, they are both very LOUD, and at night there's almost always something there to bark at. The predators don't come close, but that's because the dogs bark to warn them away. If the dogs didn't bark I'm not sure how useful they'd be. Llamas are quiet and I hear if you find a really good one they will keep coyotes and domestic dogs away but are not good on other types of predators. With llamas you have to be careful of your own dogs. I don't think they learn to "adopt" any dog--even the ones you own. But I don't really know a lot about llamas. 

How are those breeds around rabbits and deer?  My property has tons of deer and rabbits.  We even have one buck that visits my goats on a daily basis to look at them through the fence line.

[Nanno]

My dogs don't chase rabbits or deer. We got Daisy when she was 3 years old and already mostly trained, but we got Pluto (the Anatolian) as a pup and we had to train him not to chase deer. It didn't take him long. They are incredibly smart dogs and they don't have a strong prey/chase instinct to begin with so it's easy to train them not to chase non-predator species. In fact, they don't really even chase predator species. They more just stand between the predator and the goats and bark their heads off. They'll chase long enough to drive the predator away, but then they circle right back to the flock/herd. This is smart because coyotes will circle around and come back to the goats if one of them can lure the dog away. My dogs aren't much of rabbit chasers. They'll sometimes chase one for a lark but they've never gotten one. A rabbit ran right under their noses the other day and both dogs just looked at it.

Now, the other day something strange happened. Pluto took off into the woods and I heard a lot of screaming. I thought a baby deer had gotten startled into our fence and was caught so I ran to investigate. Instead, Pluto came trouting proudly out with the screaming fawn in his mouth! I was FURIOUS! I yelled at him to drop it and he did immediately. It was ok. He hadn't punctured it. I don't know if he was bringing it back to kill or if he was bringing it back to me because he thought it was a lost/injured animal. At least he hadn't hurt it and he did drop it immediately when I hollered at him.

[seth s]

My dogs don't chase rabbits or deer. We got Daisy when she was 3 years old and already mostly trained, but we got Pluto (the Anatolian) as a pup and we had to train him not to chase deer. It didn't take him long. They are incredibly smart dogs and they don't have a strong prey/chase instinct to begin with so it's easy to train them not to chase non-predator species. In fact, they don't really even chase predator species. They more just stand between the predator and the goats and bark their heads off. They'll chase long enough to drive the predator away, but then they circle right back to the flock/herd. This is smart because coyotes will circle around and come back to the goats if one of them can lure the dog away. My dogs aren't much of rabbit chasers. They'll sometimes chase one for a lark but they've never gotten one. A rabbit ran right under their noses the other day and both dogs just looked at it.

Now, the other day something strange happened. Pluto took off into the woods and I heard a lot of screaming. I thought a baby deer had gotten startled into our fence and was caught so I ran to investigate. Instead, Pluto came trouting proudly out with the screaming fawn in his mouth! I was FURIOUS! I yelled at him to drop it and he did immediately. It was ok. He hadn't punctured it. I don't know if he was bringing it back to kill or if he was bringing it back to me because he thought it was a lost/injured animal. At least he hadn't hurt it and he did drop it immediately when I hollered at him.


I bet the deer incident was scary and exciting at the same time!   Thanks for the help and feedback in this,  the barking is a bit of a concern for me as I don't want to be "that Neighbor"  I live on a island, and we don't have bears or cougars luckily, but lots of coyotes, and dogs.  Might look deeper into the Llama as a guard animal.