Quick weight question for an upcoming trip

[Tinfoil_Haberdashery]

The stars are aligning for me to take a month off this summer. Not knowing when that might happen again, I'd like to hike the John Muir Trail, and I'd like to do it with my goats.

I've got permits (goats included), logistics sorted, an itinerary planned, and now one of the only things that worries me is: Are my lads up to it?

They're just over 2 years old, born in March of 2016. My gear is very light, so I don't need them to carry much--just food and bear canisters, apart from their own essentials.

However, when I crunched the numbers on how much their essentials weigh, I was a bit horrified. Here's the graph.

8 lbs just for their pack? Mine weighs less than 3!

Anyway, as you can see, their total weight is apt to be 22lbs, 15% of their 140lb body weight.

With a 10 mile/day itinerary, is that too much for them? I've seen people say that 15% is doable in their third year--which...they're in their third year when they're 2 years old, right? Other sources say they shouldn't carry even a harness until their 4th year.

Thoughts and opinions?

[Sanhestar]

I wouldn't do it but then I don't start mine under weight (slowly increasing) until they are 2,5 years old. They are in their third year when they are between their third and fourth birthday.

[Tinfoil_Haberdashery]

I wouldn't do it but then I don't start mine under weight (slowly increasing) until they are 2,5 years old. They are in their third year when they are between their third and fourth birthday.

Is it to prevent chronic injury? Seems odd--when humans are at that stage of development, we can carry a much larger proportion of our body weight.

Also, if that's what people mean by third year, etc. it's pretty confusing. It'd be like calling this the 20th century just because the year starts with the number 20--it's more intuitive, maybe, but not actually correct.

[Nanno]

Goats don't completely stop growing until they are around four years old. However, I do pack mine with light loads using an appropriately-sized saddle starting at around 18 months. The main thing here is to know your animals, not necessarily a formula. 140 lbs. at 2 years old is fairly small in my opinion. I would prefer to see them closer to 160 lbs. at this age. However, spring is usually a time of rapid growth spurts, so hopefully by the time your trip comes up this summer they'll have grown significantly. That said, they are very young and the trip you're planning is a long one. Conditioning them to carry that kind of weight on a one-week trip should be no problem. Conditioning them to carry it for 3+ weeks is asking a lot and I would feel pretty iffy about demanding that much out of 2-year-olds, especially considering that their saddles will probably not fit as well as they should.

Things to think about:

How fit are your goats? Do they already do a lot of hiking without packs? How many miles do you typically cover? 10 miles/day with a 22 lb. pack is fine for a short-term trip and most youngsters could handle that without difficulty, but a young goat needs to be very fit to keep it up for several weeks.

Do your saddles fit? At this age, standard-sized saddles may still be too long for their backs. Make sure your saddles sit behind the shoulder blades but well ahead of the hip bones. Watch your goats walk around with empty saddles and see if their hip bones hit at all when they step. If they do, then your goats need to grow a little more to fit their equipment.

Another thing to consider with saddle fit is the shape of your goats' backs. Many younger goats (and we encounter this with horses too) still have their withers set too low for a good saddle fit. The withers are about the last thing to develop as a goat matures, and some don't have good ones until they're over 4 years old. Before the withers come up, the saddle often doesn't sit quite right, and there's nothing to keep it from sliding side-to-side or riding up the shoulders. Two-year-old goats also tend to be built downhill, exacerbating the problem of saddles sliding forward and irritating the shoulders even when they're walking on level ground.

Know your goats and know your equipment. If you have saddles that fit well and you have taken the time to condition your goats so they're up to the task, then I think they should be ok if they get some good growth this spring. Daily exercise training without packs, including some running, will strengthen their muscles, bones, and joints more than anything else at this age, and can really encourage growth as well. Make sure you use those packs several times for multi-day trips to make sure your goats are comfortable wearing them with a load. Sometimes saddle fitting problems don't become obvious until the second or third day in a row of carrying it.

Is there any possibility that you could get by with only packing one goat? That way you could switch your saddle back and forth between them so they get a break every other day. Or you could even switch every day at lunchtime so they only pack half-days. They could probably carry a little more weight in the pack if you were giving them that break between-times. Something to think about.

Good luck with your adventures! I'm sure with the right planning and preparation you'll either be able to make it work, or you'll know that packing your goats to capacity is not in the cards for this summer.

[Sanhestar]

Is it to prevent chronic injury? Seems odd--when humans are at that stage of development, we can carry a much larger proportion of our body weight.

yes, it is.

I have no data on young humans carrying large amounts of weight and longterm damage. But I know how my discs, knees and hands feel after 30 odd years of lifting, hauling, etc. everything around horse and goat husbandry......

Also, the physics of carrying are different. Humans have a  clavicle that will support the shoulders, goats do not (as any other four-footed animal).

I also second what Nanno already said. Your goats are quite small for that age and I know from experience that a regular saddle will most likely not fit them well. Not only in length but also in width.

It is one more year for you to wait and train your goats without weight. It will be worth it.

BTW - I found two studies a while ago that confirm that castrated goats actually NEVER stop growing. Some growth plates have been found to be still unclosed in ibex at age 12 years (!) - upper arm and lower leg - and in goat wethers at age 9 years - ulna, shin and femur. The one study that compared wethers with intact goats showed that castration can delay closing of the growth plates in all bones for up to four years.

As open growth plates are more prone to injury this should be kept in mind, too.

[Kat]

8 lbs just for their pack? Mine weighs less than 3!

Yeah, this is the big problem I personally have with goat saddles! Somebody needs to build an ultralite one  But, you can cut that by at least 2 lbs by going with a Sopris Rookie saddle & intermediate panniers.

You could use a Bearikade Blazer (50 ci bigger) instead of Bear Vault 500 and save another half pound.  http://www.wild-ideas.net/the-blazer/  

Then you're into the smaller items to save weight, just an example your scale at 142g, mine only weighs 91g.  It all adds up.

[Tinfoil_Haberdashery]

How fit are your goats? Do they already do a lot of hiking without packs? How many miles do you typically cover? 10 miles/day with a 22 lb. pack is fine for a short-term trip and most youngsters could handle that without difficulty, but a young goat needs to be very fit to keep it up for several weeks.

Unfortunately the timing means this would likely be one of the first major hikes of the year--the Sierra is too snowpacked to have allowed for much hiking yet this year. Might have to prioritize a fitness regemin.

Do your saddles fit? At this age, standard-sized saddles may still be too long for their backs. Make sure your saddles sit behind the shoulder blades but well ahead of the hip bones. Watch your goats walk around with empty saddles and see if their hip bones hit at all when they step. If they do, then your goats need to grow a little more to fit their equipment. 

I assume this is without the pad? Good advice, I'll try this.

Is there any possibility that you could get by with only packing one goat? That way you could switch your saddle back and forth between them so they get a break every other day. Or you could even switch every day at lunchtime so they only pack half-days. They could probably carry a little more weight in the pack if you were giving them that break between-times. Something to think about. 

I think I can take measures to reduce pack weight by increasing resupply frequency. This should drop the weight to 15 lbs--closer to 10% of their body weight. Then I can trade the 3lb. bear can back and forth, or maybe just carry it myself.

Your goats are quite small for that age

I've been a bit worried about that, but it's damn hard to find anything like an "expected weight" chart or similar. Does ~63kg seem outside the healthy range for Alpine/Toggenburg cross of that age, or just on the small end of healthy?

Yeah, this is the big problem I personally have with goat saddles! Somebody needs to build an ultralite one  But, you can cut that by at least 2 lbs by going with a Sopris Rookie saddle & intermediate panniers.

You could use a Bearikade Blazer (50 ci bigger) instead of Bear Vault 500 and save another half pound.  http://www.wild-ideas.net/the-blazer/  

Then you're into the smaller items to save weight, just an example your scale at 142g, mine only weighs 91g.  It all adds up.

I've been thinking about using the saddles I've got as a template, replicating the "wings" in fiberglass and the crossbars from aluminum square tubing. Unfortunately, this would likely save around a pound or less, as the majority of the weight seems to be in the pad and straps, and it's hard to see anywhere weight can be cut there.

Wow...that can costs 4x as much as the bear vault! Not sure I can justify increasing the budget of this trip by that much.

What scale do you use, if you don't mind me asking?

[Nanno]

Unfortunately the timing means this would likely be one of the first major hikes of the year--the Sierra is too snowpacked to have allowed for much hiking yet this year. Might have to prioritize a fitness regemin.

If you want to make this trip a "go" this summer and have fun, then it's time to start working out now and plan a program through the next couple months. You don't have to hike in the mountains to get your boys in shape. We've often done most of our conditioning on quiet roads around neighborhoods. Heck, I used to ride my bike on dirt roads and have my goat, Cuzco, run along with me. Your goats should be out walking with you every day, and for conditioning purposes I'd say at least three miles a day of brisk walking and some jogging to help get them in shape, plus a longer walk once a week. It will be worth it. There's nothing less fun than getting three days into your planned hike and discovering that your goats are not up to the task because they've been out-of-shape "pasture potatoes". 

I assume this is without the pad? Good advice, I'll try this. 

Yes, always try saddle fit without a pad first. Set it up on the withers and slide it back until it "sets" behind the shoulder. This is called the "saddle seat". Young goats' saddle seats aren't usually well-defined yet, but you should still be able to get it. Check that your saddle looks level front-to-back and rock it back and forth to get a feel for how it sits. It should want to stay in place--not rock back and forth. Make sure the front forks are not riding down on your goat's spine (saddle too wide) and that your saddle doesn't look "perched" on your goat's back (saddle too narrow). Now crouch down look at it from the back. Does the angle of the tree match the angle of your goat's back all the way down the panels? Run your hand under the saddle on both sides and feel for pressure points, gaps, and bridging. No saddle is ever 100% perfect because saddle trees are static and goats are dynamic, but it should look and feel like it fits the size and shape of your goat's back. 
If your saddle looks good without the pad, add the pad and check again. A too-wide saddle can usually be fixed with a thick enough pad, but a too-narrow saddle cannot. Think of it like shoes--properly fitting shoes are ideal, but if they're a little too big you can add an extra pair of socks and make them work. But if your shoes are too tight, adding more socks might pad your feet for a short while, but in the long run it's only making the problem worse. One thing about pads is that because they are thick and rigid, they actually do add length to the saddle. Your saddle may fit fine without the pad, but if the pad hits your goat's hipbones it will still knock the saddle forward with each step. A pocket pad is probably the worst choice in this scenario because it can't be positioned differently. A regular non-pocket pad could be moved further forward onto the shoulders as long as the saddle itself is still positioned correctly. This is not ideal, but it's better than the alternative.   

I think I can take measures to reduce pack weight by increasing resupply frequency. This should drop the weight to 15 lbs--closer to 10% of their body weight. Then I can trade the 3lb. bear can back and forth, or maybe just carry it myself. 

I think you might still do better to go with one pack and load it heavier than to try to pack both goats, especially if there's even the slightest doubt about conditioning or saddle fit. 

I've been a bit worried about that, but it's damn hard to find anything like an "expected weight" chart or similar. Does ~63kg seem outside the healthy range for Alpine/Toggenburg cross of that age, or just on the small end of healthy?

I'd say yours are at the small end of healthy, but it doesn't mean they won't catch up. My boys were about 125# at 1 year and about 150# at 18 months. At two years they were around 180# or more. However, mine were May/June babies, so they'd already had that spring growth under their belts by the time they turned two. Mine are also half Nubian and they tend to grow bigger than Alpines and Toggs. Mine have topped out at around 195# and 220# at nearly 4 years old. A friend of mine has an Alpine/LaMancha cross that just turned two years old and I want to say he's over 160# just by looking at him and he was a December baby. So yeah, your guys could definitely use some more growth. Good eats and good exercise will help.

[Nanno]

Ah... just found my measurements from when I was fitting my boys for a custom harness order. This would have been December/January 2015/16 so I know my goats were almost exactly 18 months old at that time.

Finn:
Height: 32" at withers
Girth: 39" (Translates to around 165# on the weight tape)
Shoulder to tail: 31"
Back (saddle seat to hip bones): 16"

Sputnik:
Height: 32" at withers
Girth: 38" (Translates to around 150-155#)
Shoulder to tail: 32"
Back: 16"

It's funny, but looking at these measurements, Finn looked significantly larger than Sputnik at that stage. The were the same height according to the measuring stick, but Finn looked taller because he was clearly bulkier and weighed measurably 10 lbs. more. But Sputnik was an inch longer from shoulder to tail than Finn was at this stage, and it was a hint of things to come.

In six months Sputnik surpassed Finn in height, length, and width but not by much. They looked almost the same size when we started driving them as a pair in June 2016 at two-year-olds. But one year later Sputnik was towering over Finn. Sputnik is much longer and bulkier than Finn too. Finn probably weighs around 195-200#. Sputnik has to be somewhere in the vicinity of 220#. He's too big for my weight tape. We had him weighed at CSU a year ago and he was 210# at the time. He's grown since then. However, Finn has much stronger conformation and would probably out-carry and outlast Sputnik on a hike. If I were to load one goat heavier, it would be Finn.

Not sure if that's much help to you, but I thought it was interesting that I did have exact weights and measurements from my boys at 18 months, and that they grew out much differently than I expected. Finn looked like a linebacker his first year and Sputnik was a runty little thing tagging along in Finn's shadow until they turned two. Now they look just the opposite even though Finn is still the stronger, more athletic goat.

[Kat]

re: scale - it's just a digital fish scale with a hook I got at a sporting goods store, works great brand name is Quarrow - this one: https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/quarrow-...hing-scale (not sure why there are bad reviews mine has been solidly reliable for over a year.)

re: bear can - Bearikade does rent the other models. Also, that is a rather large densely heavy object, would be somewhat challenging to balance that on the other pannier particularly as it changes weight daily. As you said, might want to consider carrying that yourself; and then you could offload more static weight items to the goat(s) so you're not rethinking the packing every morning, would be a bit of a time saver.