Swollen Knee

[Saltlick]

   
  photo 1 (9).JPG (Size: 48.88 KB / Downloads: 60)     Noticed this just over a week ago on my two year old. Thought he might have just injured it or twisted it since they are pretty rough on each other sometimes with the horns. He never limped at all though, doesn't favor it, in fact it doesn't seem to bother him in any way. It was soft and squishy, fluidy. Now it's a bit firmer. He still doesn't favor it or anything. In fact it's hard to keep him still (he's my most hyper-active goat). The other knee is fine.

My goat vet is and hour and a half drive away and I worked all last week, but I'll finally be able to take him in to the vet on Wednesday. I doubt it's CAE since he's from a closed herd, but having him tested anyways, and my other ones (the one I tested when he was little and was negative, and the other one I was told was also from a negative herd). Anyhow, I'm not freaking out exactly, but I am really worried about him, especially since I'm leaving for two months and someone else will be caring for the three of them. I have been battling lice, treated them and the environment with three different things and they still seem itchy (although not as bad). Could mites or lice cause some kind of auto-immune reaction?

Anyone ever seen anything like this? It's looks so bad!!! Ok, yes, I'm freaking out. Although he is my most obnoxious goat, he's also one of my favorites. Worried...

[Charlie Horse]

Well.

One thing is it could be what I think is called a hematoma, or a blob of blood between the skin and meat. I have had a dog do it and a horse get a huge one on the side of her ass from a slip and fall onto asphalt. They balloon up, then sort of start sagging. It'll clot up and get firmer, then decompose and get squishy again. I ended up lancing both the dogs and the horse's but in the end the vet had to come out and yank a blob of scar material out of the horse because it lasted so long (was big). Since this is a knee I'm not sure I would want to mess with it much.

Another thing is it could be knee fluid that has leaked. I fell off a horse once and did something like that to my elbow. In that case it leaked into the joint and sorta stopped it from moving in its full range.

In both cases its just a matter of time and things are back to normal and doesn't sound to me to be any big deal. I get the concern though-- I'm paranoid about leg injuries on pack goats.

[Saltlick]

Thanks Charlie Horse, helps ease my mind a bit... I was thinking of the possibility of a hematoma as well, but didn't want to risk trying to pull out any serum with a needle being on the joint and all... I think I'm still taking him to the vet on Wednesday since I'd probably feel too guilty and worry about it for the entire time I'm gone.

[Taffy]

Have you tried Permethrin for the mites? I had a breakout earlier in the spring and sprayed the goats and the bedding with it. Cleared those little buggers right up. Sevin Dust is also a safe alternative for both on the goats and the bedding.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

I know those knees! and you dont have to worry about CAE. All animals still testing negative here so his mama and dada were and are clean. But more so then that is CAE doesnt present quickly nor does it present first in a squishy form. Think of CAE as arthritis cause well thats where it gets part of its name from. The swollen knee part is actually mutated bone growth. Another thing is his age. CAE takes time to really set in before you would start to see clinical signs.

My very first goat was a Nubian doeling. She was actually used as a clean up kid on CAE positive animals. On the commercial goat farm I worked on, we pulled new borns off positive does and raised them on pasturized milk. We never milked the positive animals. Most of the time the extra buck kids were graphed onto the positive does. But when a positive doe kidded and we were not around to pull kids before they nursed, the kids were of course were infected right off. But to make a long story short, my first doe, because she nursed off her positive dam while we were gone, was one of the kids used as a clean up kid on dozens of positive does. She was by the most heavily CAE infected goat possibly ever and even she didnt start showing clinical signs till she was over 3 years old. But normally its around age 5 they can start to show clinical signs if they even ever do.

With that being said, with the few boys you have and if you have a decent vet, it would be pretty cheap to have em tested. So please feel free. Its amazing how much that little piece of paper can give you piece of mind

[Saltlick]

Hi Dave!! I know your herd is negative so it would never cross my mind he had something from there, and he's been super healthy all along (and the most adventurous!). But the other pack-wether I bought last summer, well, I just took the guy's word for it that HE bought him from a negative herd, and then there are a few goats around where I keep mine, and the guy lets them out sometimes and they come up to the fence where mine are. As far as I know it's pretty hard to spread that way, but who knows... But I mainly want to take him to the vet to find out what's wrong with his knee, if it's something that needs drained or treated in any way. He doesn't even favor it, but I'm just worried it may lame him, and he's such an awesome goat (well, when he's not tipping over my coffee in camp, or chasing the other goat and beating the crap out of him!) that I'll be devastated if he can't hike anymore. He's tall now too, about the same height as my 3 year old. Since I have to drive so far to get him examined, I'll just bring the others too and get everyone tested - it's $94 to get all three goats tested for CAE, CL and Johne's so I may as well do it. I just hope his knee gets better. They'll have a two month rest in their pen while I'm gone (it's big, but man will they be bored since they're used to getting out on walks several times a week!) Spoiled.

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I'm a bit attached to these goats... And I have to put the vet visit on my credit card, so I am a little hesitant, but since I'm leaving for two months I think I should just get that knee looked at. Kids!!! Next thing you know he'll be wanting an iPad!

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Hi Taffy! first I used Ivermectin pour-on and diatomaceous earth, which worked last year. Next I tried Python Dust. Then I tried Ultra-Shield Ex spray which is permethrin and pyrethrin. They are still itchy, but not nearly as bad. Today I bathed all three of them in oatmeal and chamomile shampoo to try and soothe their skin, since the pour on dried out their skin so much and caused one of them to get all flakey. I feel sorry for them! I'm going to dust them and the environment one more time before I leave, and hope for the best. I don't actually SEE any live on them any more, but as far as mited go I can't tell. I did originally find lice two months ago when they were super itchy. Last year they has a round of it, but with just two treatments of the Ivermectin pour-on and DE it was over.

[Dwite Sharp]

Lice have a three week life cycle so you must treat "ALL" your goats and their facilities every three weeks for a minimum of two cycles (I would recommend 3) to lower the existing lice count to a manageable level. Hot dry weather usually makes it tougher for the lice to survive. Wet, milder weather usually is what the lice thrive in. This next procedure is best if done at the beginning of the wet, milder weather, so as to keep the lice count at a lower level.
To rid my goats of lice I use either Ivomectin or Cydectin (they are in the same class of wormers) administered "Orally", the Ivomectin can also be injected. A lot of other wormers do "Not" rid your goats of lice. I have never had any success with "pour on" applications. Be sure to use an accurate dose, under dosing is worthless, over dosing (to a point) generally will not harm your goat. At the same time you administer the oral wormers to "All" your goats you must spray their housing, bedding etc. with a Permethrin (man-made chemical based) or Pyrmethrin (plant based) mixed at the correct ratio. I use a garden, pump up, sprayer, and saturate everything liberally with the goats shut out. I let this dry for hours before allowing the goats back in. Repeat this whole procedure 21 days later or you will have more lice hatch out and another infestation will begin all over again. Lice, like other parasites are "always" on your goat, but sometimes you must assist them in keeping these parasites at a manageable level. Hope this helps.

[Saltlick]

Thanks Dwite! I was re-treating them and the premisses every 14 days - maybe that's part of the problem. Appreciate the advice!

[joecool911]

My big guy has the same affliction. Vet thinks it's a function of fast growth and plates not set yet. May grow out of it. Same with legs cocked out a bit from knee down.

[Saltlick]

Oh no!!!! It looks just like my guy's knee! Does he limp on it at all??? Mine doesn't limp. Is your vet a good goat vet? (the one here is so-so, but I wouldn't say great). If so, maybe I don't need to drive him all the way out to the vet, maybe I should just wait. I'm so bummed... I really love this goat!!

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He did go through a major growth spurt this spring and caught up in height with my three year old... Did you vet think it was hopeful?