Free buck

[michael]

http://kalispell.craigslist.org/zip/4832036441.html

This buck came up down the road from me. I don't have horns in my herd but wonder if anyone else would be interested. Since I've never mixed the horned/no horns. How much problem would it really be if he were wethered? Ideas. I like the fact that he is already packing age and friendly.

[michael]

I also wanted to know if anyone has experience with wethering a buck this old? Could he settle down and make a decent packgoat or will the Bucky behavior be habitual and continue?

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

I think you would be smarter not to mix em. The hornless ones will never stand a chance against him. Castration should remove most if not all bucky behavior if you do decide to give it a try. Wont be able to band him thats for sure. Will have to have a vet come out and do it.

[Nanno]

^ That's funny Dave! I was just going to say the exact opposite!

I'd say it depends a lot on the goat whether he'll mix with the others or not. I've got a mixed herd of horns and no horns, and while horned Cuzco is definitely the King of the herd, he's not wicked to the non-horned goats. He's a lot more wicked with the horned ones (especially Huck Finn) since he sees them as the biggest threat to his supremacy. He bosses Pac-Man and the girls because they're lower on the pecking order, but he doesn't go after them and he usually pulls his punches unless one directly challenges his authority. My herd queen, Lilly, is my downright meanest goat and she's polled!

So in my (limited) experience I think it may boil down to the individual goat. If this buck is very gentle and laid back then he probably will not use his horns in a nasty way, especially once he's established dominance. His horns, his age, his size, and his long time spent as a buck will probably ensure him the top spot at once, so I anticipate very little fighting with your young guys unless he's just plain mean with other goats. That would be something to ask the owner. Does this buck live with other male goats? How does he treat them? Where is he in the pecking order? Sometimes a sweet, mellow goat who is low goat on the totem pole can become mean when they get to the top (that would describe my Lilly). How does he treat the girls? If he's at the top of his herd and yet gentle with everybody and gentle with people then I think you have a good chance of getting a very nice boy who can be a benevolent herd king.

The buck behavior, on the other hand, may never go away. He'll lose the magnificent mane of hair and he'll lose his bucky smell, but at six years old he's got a lot of learned behavior that isn't going to just disappear. My Pac-Man was wethered after only one season as a breeding buck and he still tries to breed the girls, pees and sucks on himself, and sniffs and drinks everyone else's pee. He's not nearly as bad as an intact buck, but he sure hasn't forgotten how to act like one when the mood strikes. The learned buck behavior will be even more ingrained with a buck that old. But at least he wouldn't smell bad or have that sticky resin all over his hair, and he may abandon all buck behavior when he's working. I find that Pac-Man only acts bucky when he's loose with the other goats but not when I'm messing with him, so it hasn't affected his working life at all. His front legs were too gross to touch during the fall, but unlike when he was a buck, the pee washed off easily with a garden hose. It looked yucky but it wasn't sticky or stinky like when he was intact. Could even be that if you have no girls or intact males around to get him excited, this older buck could stay a lot less "bucky" than I expect.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

LOL great minds think exactly opposite! I guess I look at this question with what the worst outcome in mind. Having raised quite a few bucks over the years, I just know what they can do to each other when motivated. But there are a ton of things that can influence the outcome. Even horn shape can change up outcome. Legion learned to hook other goats under the belly from Lincoln and tends to do it just about anytime another goat presents to him. And his horns are perfectly formed to do damage doing so. That alone would make me never trust him with another goat. And he is a wether. The two bucks we have now are evenly matched and both aggressive during the breeding season especially. They would literally battle until one of them was dead. Then if you get a jerk goat that just beats up his pen mate just because he can, that verges on the cruelty level to pen him with another goat. So I always suggest never to pen intact bucks together.

And as for the bucky behavior. I only consider that being the smell and the trying to mate. Everything else is just boy behavior

[Nanno]

Haha! Pac-Man still "mates" all the girls. I thought I was going to have a couple of accidental breedings last fall when first Finn and then Snickers managed to get over the fence into the girls' pen. However, Pac-Man was in with the girls to keep them happy and detect heat cycles for me, and I'm guessing he's the reason no one else got to breed. He guards his girls very jealously, woos them tenderly, and breeds them throughout their heat cycle. He has no idea he's shooting blanks and if I don't sell him he'll probably claim all the babies next summer as his own. He loves babies and is very gentle and patient with them and is convinced that they're all his. Although Pac-Man doesn't have horns, I think he's the kind of goat that would be very gentle and careful with them if he did.

Cuzco was the one I most worried about at first because he has such a history of bad horn manners. He used his horns aggressively against my horses which almost got him killed a few times when they retaliated. Cuzco would stab upwards toward their abdomens like Legion does. He took hair off several horse's chests with downward slashes, but he thankfully never managed to actually puncture anyone with those wicked jabs. Because of all this I was very worried at first when we got other goats. But it turns out that as long as no one is directly challenging his authority, Cuzco is a pretty good herd boss. He rarely hits unless there's a reason to hit, and he usually only hits hard enough to get his point across.

Lilly, on the other hand... I'm glad that goat doesn't have horns! She's almost certainly the reason Nubbin lost her babies last year, and she goes out of her way to chase and terrorize the others even when they're quietly minding their own business. Then she turns around and lets them share her shed, so who knows what she's thinking. At least Cuzco is consistent--"Don't bother me, I won't bother you. And no one shares my shelter!"

[michael]

All good info, thanks. I decided to pass, to many possible issues but the deal breaker was that the local vet wants about $180 to fix him and I just have to many other concerns to keep up with. If anyone is interested, I'm hoping to see you all at the rendy and could probably get something worked out between now and then.

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That does bring me to another question which maybe should be in the health section. Couldn't a simple castration be done by the owner? I'm not afraid of knives but don't think I can get the needed meds to do a good job. Thoughts?

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Ive watched do cows a few times and its pretty barbaric. They just cut em off, spray em and send em on their way. Not something Id suggest doing on a goat. You might try to get a calf sized bander but then you still run the risks of the bands not closing tight enough to kill the cords. Doesnt happen often but can. The banding tool I would think would run about 40-50 bucks.

[deschutes dawn]

My vet uses what I think is called a California bander. She uses it on all ages of bucks with success including some that were 4 years old and were herd bucks for a local dairy. They are working pack goats in Redding now.
I also have a mixed herd of horns/no horns. My crew are all pretty mellow but Maximus is definitely kingpin. He never uses his horns unless he has been physically threatened but even then he doesn't keep after the matter. Dave has met some of my guys and he's seen how calm they are. Even the buckling I got from Dave is very calm and collected even with the girls. Could be the circumstances that affect the behavior.

[michael]

Now that is interesting dawn. Maybe I will take another look at the situation. Will definitely research the California bander.