Goat Packing the Appalachian Trail

[hihobaron]

Hello All
Has been wet here again.
No snow, highs in the 50's during the day.
Tank heaters for water are in but not powered up.
Spent some time looking around for places to take the Eastern Contingent of PGC for a hike and PR.
Low and behold I have access to the Appalachian Trail over 2000 miles From Georgia to Maine.
Plus The Foothills Trail that is close to 50 miles long. Trail Heads to both are within 35 miles of me.
Wooded Eastern Terrain, frequent water crossings well maintained trail heads and trails.
NO Goat Restrictions, some parts have pack in camps, others you can start from State and City Parks for day trips.
No Mountain Sheep etc. Just have to look out for the Moonshine Still sites.
Happy Trails
hihobaron

[Nanno]

I was under the impression that goats are not permitted on the Appalachian Trail.

[hihobaron]

Hello Nanno
I have been looking through all the regulations I can get into online. for this area.
There may be a few areas that are not terrain suitable for goats unless they are "Extreamly" experienced.
Long Suspension bridges etc.
The ONLY Restriction I could find in Both SC State Parks, Foothills Trail (70 miles) Appalachian Trail.
Reads along the Line of "Horse, Mules, etc" No specific mention of Goats/Lamas.
By the book (goats) they are treated under the same rules as a dog. State Park/ City Parks with walking trails same law.
Keep them leashed or under direct supervision. If they are noisy (A Goat Noisy)?? or aggressive you can be asked to leave. The entire trail is not well supervised. You all know from out there that many trail heads are at best a wide spot in the road or a gravel pad. Many Trail heads here are the same way. Some do start in State Parks were you can camp and do day walks. The thing is once you are on the trails who is going to catch you???
No Mountain Goats here/sheep, Goats eat native forage so " Bringing in Invasive plant seeds is not a problem"
Some Bear (Black) wild/feral hogs/deer/but predators on 4 legs are not a major threat. 2 Legged ones is one reason I have a CWP permit. so I can carry a defensive weapon anywhere on the trails or in State Parks.
The way I look at it is my goats are my "Therapy Animals" and "Emotional Support Animals"
How much do you want to bet I can get a "Assistance Animal" certification for my boys???
The packs they have on are for my medical supplies.
If a Turkey, yes Live Fowl type Turkey can fly on a commercial jet with a "Assistance Animal" certification my goats can get the same certification and walk with me on any trail I want to go on.
Yes , I do have a mind set that if the rules don't make good sense, I will find a way around it. Call it a goatish attitude.
Here in the East you have to consider "Stupid" rules the same way you out there would look at how to get around a rock in the trail.
Happy Trails
Wish me Luck
hihobaron

[Nanno]

I'm with you on the rules thing. But I thought you might want to be aware that some here have stated that goats are not allowed on the AT. Not sure where they got their info from.

[Saph]

I know that I saw something a few years back; however this is all I could find, after a quick search:
http://www.nps.gov/appa/learn/management...m_2002.pdf
Scroll down to the definition of "pack animals."

So, unfortunately, you are not allowed to use goats on the AT. 

[hihobaron]

Hello Nanno and company
I have spent more than 8 hours tracing down online sources for No-Goat rules. Still more to do.
At least in my area for the AT and Foothills Trail systems.
Even the AT Says "Usage Rules vary by area" Depending on section of trail.
The main consistent rule I can find is basic Leash and manners.
Yes, Rules on Riding/Pack "Equines" and a very vague reference to "Pack Animals"
Goats and Lamas not mentioned.
Companion Animals Not mentioned. Dose a dog with a pack on become a "Pack Animal" ???
Trails NOT controlled except close to State Park accesses and as I mentioned there is a way "Round" that.
At any rate my feeling is I will use both of the above trail systems as I want and PROMOTE "LEAVE NO TRACE"
Goats are even better here for that, and can always say we are doing trail clean up and will pick up trash along trail to prove it.
People here know nothing about Pack Goats and even the "Officials" in the Park Service have never had to deal with them.
Basically, they have bigger People Problems to deal with than a couple Goats and a Ornery old Goat to deal with.
The worst they can do is send me home and as my prime targets /research sites are close by for now, no big deal.
Initial testing will be just goat walks for all of us to learn more about trail work here.
Happy Trails
hihobaron

[hihobaron]

I know that I saw something a few years back; however this is all I could find, after a quick search:
http://www.nps.gov/appa/learn/management...m_2002.pdf
Scroll down to the definition of "pack animals."

So, unfortunately, you are not allowed to use goats on the AT. 

Hello Saph
You dug very deep for that order "2002" if I read the date right?
How many "Rangers" are there working the trail NOW that would know that point of law? 
The Condition of the entire NFS, DNR, etc is so Under funded by the Obama Administration that only in high profile/ political oriented cases is there a chance of anything but a warning to "you can't do that here".
Look for yourself at the areas you pack through were there is litter from "Slob" campers/packers.
I know of 3 county and state owned property here that have absolutely NO kind of enforcement or even a dumpster for trash. Because the responsible departments can not "Afford" the cost of having the trash picked up, or even a Ranger from another Park stopping in to check on things once a day. 
In the end point, I will treat nature well and leave no trace.
To "Legislate"  restrictions from a Ivory Tower like you are dealing with out there on Pack Goats spreading infections to the Mountain Goats/sheep.
Most of the "Legislators" would not recognize a pack goat even it it stuck a horn into a posterior of theirs.
If a dog can go on a trail , so can a goat, Equal Rights for all. 
Or to put it another way Goat Packing Lives Matter TOO. Especially if you have Dark Colored Pack Goats.

Happy Trails
Ignore the "System" if it is not Justified  (Also Called Being a "Rational Anarchist"
hihobaron

[hihobaron]

Hello All
I have been in contact with the closest SC State Park to me with "Primitive Camping" and Hiking Trails. 6 miles away.
Not much for trails and many are "Shared Trails" with Mountain Bikers.
Look up Paris Mountain State Park Greenville,SC on the SC State park site for maps.
The response was
"Go by our rules for Dogs"
Your Welcome any time and can Camp in the "Primitive" area with them as long as you follow site rules"
Goats can go anywhere on park trails.
Saturdays, They do not allow any Mountain bikers on any of the trails. !!! Yaaa
Down side is most of the trails are only from 1/2 mile to 4 miles long. Many are Loop trails about 23 miles total trails in the park.
Park is withing 5 miles of Downtown Greenville SC and gets a lot of usage by "City Folk"
Oh well, it is close and easy to get to for me and the boy's. Will do good for training runs, and I figure if I can get a Pack saddle for Pete with a set of the Trash can liner Panniers I can do the Park people a service by picking up and packing out trail trash I know is going to be there. Of course I'll make sure when we get back to Park Office I show the trash picked up to the Park People.
It is a good start for Promoting Goat Packing here in South Carolina. Even if we are just doing walk a rounds and packing trash. Yes, I expect to have run ins with dogs, I'll be packing my favorite "Dog Repellent"
Fortunately my boys seem to NOT react to dogs or if they do it is to come hide around me.
Happy Trails
hihobaron

[Nanno]

Sounds great!

So they don't allow mountain bikes on Saturdays only? That's funny. Why not? I guess the trails are too busy with hikers or something? I have to say... as open-minded as I am about multi-use trails, I have the hardest time with mountain bikers. I love dirt bikers and ATV riders and snowmobilers... never had a problem with them. But mountain bikers scare the heck out of me. They come up so fast and so quiet that you can't always get out of their way in time. They scare the horses because they come out of nowhere (at least the motorized rides give you plenty of warning), and I'm always afraid that one of them is going to be similarly surprised by my horse and have a major crash. Unlike dirt bikers, cyclists never wear enough clothes to protect them from a nasty fall and I cringe at the thought of having to give first aid to one of them. On the other hand, there's nothing quite so funny as seeing a biker's eyes bug out and his jaw drop when he comes flying around a corner and there's a 1000 lb. beast taking up the entire trail. A lot of gravel flies and they usually sound pretty shaky in the voice when I greet them. As much as they might spook my horse, I'm quite sure my horse spooks them more.

[hihobaron]

Sounds great!

So they don't allow mountain bikes on Saturdays only? That's funny. Why not? I guess the trails are too busy with hikers or something? I have to say... as open-minded as I am about multi-use trails, I have the hardest time with mountain bikers. I love dirt bikers and ATV riders and snowmobilers... never had a problem with them. But mountain bikers scare the heck out of me. They come up so fast and so quiet that you can't always get out of their way in time. They scare the horses because they come out of nowhere (at least the motorized rides give you plenty of warning), and I'm always afraid that one of them is going to be similarly surprised by my horse and have a major crash. Unlike dirt bikers, cyclists never wear enough clothes to protect them from a nasty fall and I cringe at the thought of having to give first aid to one of them. On the other hand, there's nothing quite so funny as seeing a biker's eyes bug out and his jaw drop when he comes flying around a corner and there's a 1000 lb. beast taking up the entire trail. A lot of gravel flies and they usually sound pretty shaky in the voice when I greet them. As much as they might spook my horse, I'm quite sure my horse spooks them more.

Hello Nanno
RE: Mountain Bikers on Trails 
I agree with you 100% and Bikes even on the street when your riding/working a horse as in Mounted Police work.
As some thing that I train horse for that kind of work to deal with, it is not easy.
As you say Bikes come up silently for the most part and a horse can not hear them.
Then they are there.. 
Now down here in SC there are Road Bike Marathons , Point to Point Races, Several University Bike Teams All ether come out to race or practice on the same back roads that we Ride and drive horses on.
The above will often be in large groups and will spread out (Even though they are not supposed to) the full with of the road. As you know I drive horses  as well as ride and have packed with horses.
I was driving a Belgian Team for a Carriage Service friend of mine, that just need some "Country Time".
Just a 14 foot flat hay wagon on. Came to a Intersection were I had the right of way by Road rules.
Went through the intersection and 15 bikers Blew the stop sign and piled up on the side of the flat wagon.
Sort of like getting a strike when bowling. : Yes , I have dealt with biker types many time on the road. 

They untangled themselves and started bitching. I told them if you would have stopped at the sign you would not be on the ground. Horses were just happy to stand there. 
Well they had a couple busted up bikes and scrapes and were being "Extremely Obnoxious"
So I called the Sheriff's Office reported the accident told the that I multiple Irate people acting aggressively.
Gave Location and Dispatch said there would be a office there fast. Bikers did not like it that I was on the cell phone. I always carry when working horses of any kind, but don't answer incoming calls, there is another story there I'll tell you later.
 As I have mention I do also have CWP permit and when Trailing or Driving horses I do carry.
That day I was wearing a light Safari Type jacket I like lots of pockets and just unbuttoned the front and stood up to talk face to face with them, as I turned the jacket flared open a bit and a couple of the close up ones I am sure spotted my holstered pistol. They got very Polite FAST. I told them the LEO's were on the way and everybody needed to hang around to file a accident report. They were not happy about that.
Leo's showed up about then (2 Cars)
Yes , they knew me and they have trouble all the time with these kind of road bikers. (Privileged College Brats)
End Story: They all got tickets for Running a stop sign , And endangerment of an animals.
They tried to claim He has a gun, I was ask said yes but I never un-holstered, So LEO ask to see my Permit.
That ended any problems for me.
BTY: I got even with the bikers:
I knew from driving past were they always parked to gather. 
I offered to haul the busted bikes and any people back to their parking spot, about 2 miles and on the way to the farm any way.
So they loaded several bikes and people onto the wagon. 
Got to their Parking spot.
They went to unload and I said the fee is $10 each for the "Tow Service" or I keep the bikes for scrap metal.
I think they learned the hard way about "Right of Way"
Happy Trails
hihobaron