CAE Negative!

[Taffy]

Yes. It's a debilitating form of arthritis and there is no cure. That is why it is so important to test your goats for it annually and to only purchase goats from CAE negative herds. If your goat has CAE you have two options. Euthanize it or follow suggested protocols for keeping it separated from goats who test negative. CAE testing on kids younger than seven to nine months of age is not effective because "false negatives" are possible, especially in young goats.

[Sanhestar]

If your goat has CAE you have two options. Euthanize it or follow suggested protocols for keeping it separated from goats who test negative.

you wrote yourself that you never had a goat that tested CAE positive or had CAE. So your above statement reflects only what everybody is repeating over and over and it's simply no longer correct.

You don't need to kill a goat that has tested positive and with proper management of the health (!) of this goat this animal can also live with negative goats without passing on the infection.

And a positive tested goat can be treated and become negative for years. Also, again, without posing risk to other herd mates.

[Taffy]

If your goat has CAE you have two options. Euthanize it or follow suggested protocols for keeping it separated from goats who test negative.

you wrote yourself that you never had a goat that tested CAE positive or had CAE. So your above statement reflects only what everybody is repeating over and over and it's simply no longer correct.

You don't need to kill a goat that has tested positive and with proper management of the health (!) of this goat this animal can also live with negative goats without passing on the infection.

And a positive tested goat can be treated and become negative for years. Also, again, without posing risk to other herd mates.

I didn't state a goat had to be killed. It is one option. The other option is to follow suggested protocols for keeping it separated from goats who test negative.

I have never read scientific studies that state a CAE positive goat can live with CAE negative goats without posing a risk or that a previously positive testing goat can become negative. I would like to read the information you are basing these statements on.

[Sanhestar]

there are no scientific studies - if you want these, you will be disappointed. There are experiences of people who have kept positive goats in the herd and these goats haven't passed on the virus.

I've done that and also treated three goats that tested positive for CAE with the following results:

- doe, 7 or 8 years old when tested, with already showing fluid in the carpal joints: treatment first worsened her overall condition. After adjusting the antiviral treatment she got better again, no acute inflammation in the joints, alert and active. She died delivering triplets in the year after starting the treatment and getting her pregnant was clearly a mistake. She should have kept empty and be retired.

- wether, 3 years old, tested positive after buying him. Received antiviral treatment, titer dropped way down and he remained negative for two more years. Died of a mesenteric cancer.

- wether, 10 years old, tested positive when three years old and received antiviral treatment for three years. Titer surged and fell for the years of the treatment until to finally drop below the treshhold of "positive" and stay that way until he died.

All these goats lived with our other goats which were also tested yearly and NOT ONE other goat has ever tested positive or even suspicious. The ten year old wether and the old doe are also mother and son and he had a twin (died of cancer), who always tested negative.

I've had more goats die of cancer or from urinary calculi.

[Nanno]

What antiviral treatment were you using? I'm very interested to hear more.

I'm also intrigued by your goats dying of cancer. Do you have any idea why that might be? I've never heard of a goat dying of cancer before.

[Sanhestar]

the antiviral treatment is one devised based on the observations and teachings of one Dr. Enderlein M.D. from Germany. Literature and remedies can be found at mastavit.de (I believe they have an english website, as well) or sanum-kehlbeck.de

The basis of Dr. Enderleins teachings are that viruses and bacteria exist in non-pathological forms and develop into pathological forms due to inability of the immune system to keep them in check - very, very simplified put. You can trigger the development back to the non-pathological forms and therefore return the body back to a system in balance.

With regard to goats dying of cancer: it's more common than thought but most people don't go to the length to have a necropsy done when a goat dies of unknown reasons. Also, as cancer in goats is something that occurs seldom in young animals most goats have already been butchered before cancer can develop.

I've started a cancer case file several years back of goats from members of the old packgoat mailing list on yahoo and there are quite a number of cases, diagnosed and suspected, but mostly diagnosed.

[Nanno]

Interesting. I'll have to check those sites out.

I wonder if wethers are more susceptible to cancer than does. I don't know that many people who keep wethers until they're really old, but lots of people keep old milk does well into their teens and I haven't heard of any of them dying of cancer.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Dont fool yourself San. Just because something works/worked for you doesnt mean its safe or applies to anyone else. Truthfully your suggestions are miss leading and dangerous. All major knowledge of CAE was made by/through the testing done at WSU here in my state. They went so far as to maintain their own dairy goat herds to further not only CAE research but that of many diseases that infect goats. WSU (WASSL) to this day still maintains constant research into CAE. So your statement there is no research is 100% incorrect.

CAE is a retrovirus and follows the most of the same paths of infection as the AIDS virus. You wouldnt put a boxer or MMA fighter who was infected with AIDS into the ring with a person who isnt infected. In fact its ILLEGAL! Is it a guarantee the virus will be passed on? No. But the very real risk of it is there, and a simple open wound say due to the butting of heads is all thats needed for transmission. Anyone who raises goats can testify that a kid will snitch off other dams without a second thought. As I raised thousands of goats over the nearly 20 years I have raises goats, I can testify to this on countless of occasions.

As Nanno said, there is 2 and only 2 ways to make sure your negative animals dont become infected by your positive animals. And that is death or separate (following a prevention program). Can you get by without doing this and not have any transmissions? Sure. Anything is possible. But is it safe and responsible? No. Can you sell your negative animals as CAE free and negative goats if they live with positive goats? No. Not if you have any morals. Its nearly impossible to find a home for a positive animal which often times leads to the second choice. Death.

As for what CAE can and will do to an animal is vastly different. I have seen it start to destroy an animal in as few as 3 to 4 years. And on the other hand I have seen CAE positive goats live 14 and 15 years without ever showing clinical signs. In all cases they are still infectious regardless of teeter levels. There is no cure and once an animal starts to show clinical signs, that animal will in short time start to show signs of pain.

[Sanhestar]

yeah, why am I not surprised at the last posting. I should have known better than to talk about the experiences we made and to try to tell people that there are possibilities to deal with CAE other than the officially approved.

[Nanno]

No one should ever "know better than to talk". All we can do is share the knowledge and experience that we have and let others decide if they'll take it or leave it. Your sharing should never be dependent upon the agreement of your audience, and disagreement is never a reason to take offense.

Sabine, you said something extremely controversial that runs completely against conventional knowledge. You should expect people to disagree strongly with what you say. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't say it.