Dogs on the trail

[hihobaron]

Sanhester
First off: thank you
I have the advantage here NO competition in the possible market here(Lamas ETC)
People will have to bring their own food, I will pack it in for them for Lunch on Pete a couple small coolers..
But for my sites a catered in meal is out of the question.(for now)
Permits etc. Maybe later. Especially at Wildcat Falls.
But for now I am figuring they bring their own lunch and beverage and Pete gets to carry it.
Wild Cat Falls will be more of a splash and play in the water type with the goats along for light trail walk.
Carry Dry cloths to walk back out in.
===========================
As to School type things I am open.
Blizzard and Fuzzy are pure white so would be good for finger painting and like attention.
I also am working (Trying) with 3 local LEO departments to use Pete and Sam as PR to get people to come in and get to know the local officers.
The thing is here all the biased medias are portraying  ALL LEO's  like Gestapo and the oppiste is the truth.
I know them ,work with them, sit and have a beer or two with officers I know. Protect and Serve is the motto
Yet they are on our front line defending the public all day and night long.
I back them in any way I can.
Be it Goat PR or with a firearm. Yes. they have my shooting records and I qualify at Sniper Level.
Plus have a qualified Concealed Weapons permit.
I could be called up as a "Reserve Officer' at any time.
Thanks again for you information
hihobaron

[Saltlick]

I'm curious about what people do to protect their goats against dogs on the trail. I'm planning to use my goats for day hikes on some trails that are used by a variety of hikers and bikers, often with their dogs. I'm concerned about off-leash dogs attacking my goats. What sort of protective measures does everyone take?

I carry bear spray. Or a smaller pepper spray. I can't do a gun, I couldn't shoot someone's dog... unless it was killing MY dog. I guess I'm closer to dogs than goats. I also carry a sturdy wooden hiking stick, and I would have no problem whacking someone's dog on the nose.

[IdahoNancy]

Learn to lunge at dogs with a good healthy loud holler face on to the dog and swing you stick with a vengeance. You'll look a little foolish but I've never had a domestic dog cross my line in the sand. Problem becomes when there is more than one dog and your goats don't stay with you. The owner of the dogs that usually show up a minute later and hearing my antics they think I may kill their dog. You can't be shy if you plan on defending goats with a stick. I can be very effective but I would have a plan B.

[Mike]

Hey guys new to goat packing but I have seen two difrent goats TKO two difrent dogs.  The first goat knock out I saw was when we first got then home.  One of my friends dogs ,Bullet, got to sniffy and intrested and Randy, my buddys goat,dirted him.  I though that was pritty cool but a isolated insident.  The other time was a lttle diffent.  I was taking my son and Steve (my goat) for a walk n a shared use trail.  We had already passes several dogs with no issues.  Then  comes this large golden lab, not really mean aggressive but really wanted to get to Steve.  He was on leash and so was Steve.  I pulled Steve a couple of feet of the trail to let this dog and the old woman attached to it buy.  The dog was getting to close and continuing to get closer.  I told the woman to keep her dog back, she replied the dog would not hurt my goat.  At this point Steve is ears forward, head and neck high slightly tilted forward.  I could feel him getting as tall as he could be.  I told the old lady one last time to get ber dog back.  She did not listen, it seamed like Steve had a plan so I let nature take its course.  The dog hit Steves personal bubble at about a foot and a half away.  Steve gave that dog one lazer quick head bunt.  He hit him so hard I heard the dogs jaw slam shut.  The dog istantly turned off.  The old woman staired i  shock, Steve had not even oved his feet just recocked himself and I smiled inside.  The old lady reacted like you can probably imagine, saying that "it was my goats fault", "I should have warned her", " goats should not be allowed on the trial"..... I simply told here she had been warned couple of times to keep her dog back.  Goats lives matter!!!  Finaly the dog got up all disoriented and the both went about there marry way.  My son thought the whole thing was super cool ( he's 4 and thinks Steve is the best pet ever).  

To anwer the question about dogs on trails I agree with the big stick and agressive attitude.  Pepperspray can turn on you in the wind and it effects everyone in the area.  Nothing worse than using that stuff close up and catching the mist your self or getting it on your hand then going pee, eating a hamburger, or rubbing your eye.  And guns are a little over kill in you local walking park for dogs anyway.  I had a extendible spring asp while I wasi  the army.  It was not very long but it would put a beating on people with a quickness.  Also if I am walking in a more urban public park I keep Steve  on his lead anyway.  For his own safety.  Good luck.

  "Speak softly and carry a big stick", Teddy Roosevelt

[Nanno]

Oh man... getting pepper spray on your hand and then going pee. That got me laughing!!

People can be SO STUPID when it comes to their dogs! You told the lady to get her dog back and she didn't listen. Then when your goat defends himself she blames YOUR animal for causing trouble. How dumb can people be?? Good thing you weren't riding a horse on that trail. It could have kicked her nosy dog and killed it and it would have been her own fault. I'm glad you have a goat that is willing to stand up for himself. It's far worse when a goat turns tail and runs because then the dog chases and the whole thing snowballs very quickly. I have no patience for people who can't or won't control their dogs and keep them a respectful distance from my goats. It's common curtesy.

[Mike]

Steve is kind of a stud.  He is the crazy murderer goat off of CL after all, he needs to keep up his street cred!!!

Tipsy Toad,
I never really addressed your whole question.  Urban'ish environments I think the big stick is plenty and far less likely to get the police called than waving a gun fake or not around.  That is however very different than the threats you may or could encounter the farther in to the great outdoors you go.  I have done a lot of research on this point because Steve's (my goat) entire purpose in life is to carry my kids gear into the back woods.  The last thing I want is some large North American predator thinking Steve would make a great midnight snack then deciding one of my kids would be easier to drag of. 

So what I have found as the biggest threat to goats in my opinion (which is totally research based with zero personal experience) is cougars at night.  Which means you need a weapons system that is designed for night use, reloading speed, has a high ammo capacity, a fair bit of kinetic energy at close range, can be handled safely and does not take up tons of room or draw a lot of attention when being carried.  I am not going to go out and buy a special weapons system for goat protection so I looked at what I already had.  A hunting rifle with scope, 12 Ga shot gun, Taurus judge 410 shot gun 45 long colt mix with 5 shot cylinder, a Ruger 44 super black hawk with 6 shot cylinder and a Kimber 45 cal 1911 with a tactical light rail 2 safety and 9 round capacity. I immediately cut the long guns, to big, to heavy, not great for night time with out some mods. After a lot of thought about my pistol selection I chose the 45 cal 1911.  Although 45 has a fairly short range its kinetic energy is very good.  I am not trying to kill a Kodiak bear defending her cubs, just a mountain lion who want a easy meal.  Also the capacity and easy of reloading was a big draw.  With 3 magazines at 8 rounds each and 1 in the chamber that's gives me 25 rounds coming at you in a hurry.  The biggest factor that really hit home for me was possibility of contact with the predator in low light or in the dark.  If you have ever tried to put effective rounds on a target in the dark with a large cal pistol with one hand on the gun and the other holding a flash light it is not easy or efficient.  It is much easier to use a weapon system with a tactical light mounted to it and sights that are designed for night time shooting.  Also the light can be turned on and of with your thumb while still keeping your more secure two handed grip on your weapon which makes you more accurate and efficient.  Again I live in WA state not Alaska or Montana where grizzly bears are a much larger threat.  I believe that cougars are my biggest issue and a 45 at that kind of range and in these kinds of conditions will be just fine for me.

What ever you decide to do for what ever threat you think is the primary one you will encounter do a little bit of training for that.  If you think dogs charging you at the park is you biggest threat find a good stick and wack some stuff.  Figure out a few stances that feel conferable and allow you to maximize power.  If you think like me that night time cougars raids might be your big threat find a place to SAFELY shoot you weapons system at night.  Try different ways of holding your light and gun.  You will be surprised how night time will make you shoot differently than during the day. You don't need to Jason Bourne or a Ninja, just don't let the first time you try any of this stuff be went your face to face with a couple dogs with a stupid owner or with that hungry cougar.  I hope some of this helps you out.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

For us, in Washington we consider off leash dogs our primary concern, wild predators secondary. In my experience people fail their canine companions frequently, they set them up for failure. I've met very few dogs that have a 100% recall rate which is in my opinion mandatory for any off leash time on public lands. I truly cringe when I hear some one yelling for their dog repeatedly, and having no affect. If your dog doesn't stay at your side, and listen 100% of the time it should be on a leash. While on the trail I have been charged, jumped on, and bitten. My goats are working for me and it's my duty to protect them, when in area's of higher traffic all my goats are on leads, but often other people's dogs are not. We also hike with a human leading the string of goats and a human following the string of goats. How I deal with off leash or sometimes even on leash dogs: 

First: I yell, "Get your dog, I have livestock." Repeatedly. This is usually when the owner calls the dog and the dog continues towards me and my goats regardless of its recall command. 

Second: If it intrudes my space I pepper spray, the gel is less likely to blow back on me so that's my preference.

Third: Luckily this hasn't happened yet, but if the dog makes physical contact with me it'll be shot, and I'll feel absolutely terrible about it. 

But your dog isn't my responsibility my safety and the safety of my animals is, and by letting the dog get into that kind of situation, the owner failed their canine companion. No dog should ever put its teeth on a human unless trained to do so in my opinion. 

Too many goats lose their lives from domestic dogs, the dogs aren't to blame, their humans are. 

As far as predators, we low line our goats close to our tent and keep a firearm handy over night.

[Kat]

I've been hiking the more urban trails with my goats this winter and am encountering a few less than well trained unleashed dogs, to be expected. So far most situations have been handled by stopping and allowing the other party to get their dog(s) leashed and under control. One time I did have to use a strong voice and "threaten" with my trekking pole. Goats were leashed and did not try to run - they do not have horns.

I do also carry a Kimber Pepper Blaster in the pocket of my hiking pants, good for 2 shots of 13'. I find I am much more likely to take this on a hike than the half pound Counter Assault bear spray, it's so easy to just stuff in the pocket.

[Deborah Haney]

Despite goats having right of way, I have encountered one dog owner who abides by that, and dozens who don't. No huge problems so far, just taut leashes and apologies for excited pups. There has been a time or two when barking has caused me to fight the urge to scoop them up (then panic because I can't hold them both anymore) but the moments pass as soon as I realize they're happening. I do carry a hiking stick, though.