CD&T Reaction

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

I've been looking into banamine because of my curiosity. I got talking to a DVM about a study that was done on a cow. It's very sad but they injected the cow I'm with banamine and MANY other things including rolling the needle around in dirt. After death they opened all the injection sites and found banamine had caused the most negative reaction in the muscle.This DVM has been giving it SQ or IV in ruminants for years and never had any reactions.

[Nanno]

How are your goats doing Taffy? I hope everyone has recovered by now!

[Nanno]

Any word on your goats' recovery, Taffy?

[Taffy]

I've been remiss in posting an update on my goats reaction tot he CD&T vaccine.

All the goats are doing well!

My friend, Debbi Otta, is a licensed vet tech.  She and her husband, Eldon, bought Nan & Phil’s goat Pac-Man.  Debbi has been my “right hand man” since the end of January when I had total knee replacement.  She has totally cared for my goats -  feed, hoof trimming, blood draws for annual testing and vaccinations.  In exchange her goats get plenty of our premium quality grass hay.  Talk about a win-win situation!

I digress…..

Jethro had the worst reaction and it took 13 days for him to the point where he could walk fairly normally.  He now only has a mild limp.  At one point the inflammation was so large it spread to his armpit and I couldn’t even get a finger between his armpit and chest.  Banamine helped a little but it was obvious the swelling was affecting the nerves.

8 days after the Cavalry 9 CD&T injection I had my vet (Matt) out to check Jethro since he was still lame.  The other goats had recovered to the point I no longer needed to give them Banamine.

Matt gave all the goats a once over and gave Jethro an injection of Dexamethizone (steroid).

All of them still had swellings of varying sizes.  He wasn’t sure if the swelling would ever completely disappear.  Only time will tell.
Matt said swelling and “shot knots” are common with all CD&T brands – some more than others.  What my goats experienced was a greater reaction than he normally sees but it is not totally uncommon.

His initial thought on the reaction to the vaccine is that at some point the vaccine had warmed up.  Since he handed it to me out of his refrigerated truck and I put it directly into my refrigerator, I think it must have warmed up before it was delivered to Matt if that is, in fact, what caused the reactions.  Even when drawing injections it was put back into the refrigerator between draws and only one needle was used to draw all of the injections.

Matt is now recommending we use the Colorado Serum CD&T which is labeled for goats.  He said Cavalry 9 has become widely used and popular. However, the Colorado Serum CD&T is labeled for goats.  He is going to test it on his own goats and sheep before we need to vaccinate again.  I have not been able to find the exact Colorado Serum CD&T he is recommending at the normal online businesses I buy from so may end up buying it from him.

Luckily it’ll be another year before they need vaccinated again!

Matt gave me vaccines for Debbi at the same time he gave me mine.  She and I checked and they all had the same batch numbers.  She gave her vaccinations before mine were given theirs.  I asked her to check her goats.

Here is what she said:

“My goats may have had “knots” as well but by the time I checked them, after we noticed how bad yours were, there were no knots. The exception was “Jazzy” who had just been given her vaccine two days before I checked. She had a fairly large swollen area behind the elbow. The other goats had gotten their vaccines at least three weeks or more before we gave yours, so there is no telling if they got knots and they went away. I did not notice anyone getting lame however.  Yours were the first time I ever saw that. I do believe I vaccinate in the same place that we did yours so that should not have made a difference.

I think some goats may have a worse reaction than others.

Just another observation. If they react severely to a vaccine they may have reacted mildly to it in the past and it just kept getting worse until the swelling became so big that it was interfering with the nerves down that leg. An example might be that the first time I got stung by a bee I had hardly any reaction. The next time I swelled worse. The last time, I got stung up under my shirt, and I swelled up so bad I looked like I was 9 months pregnant! Reaction can continue to get worse each time you use the same product.

I think that may be why Matt wants us to change products because we have already seen some issues with this one. It could very well be one of the components of this multi vaccination and not the CD&T in general. Or it could be what they use as a carrier. Who knows. We will know a lot more when we use the new product next year.”

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

Good to hear they are doing better! A couple of mine took a long time to have the swelling dissipate, a month or so if I remember.
I have related triplets that all get a far worst reaction from the rest of my herd, so I think it is true some get it worst than others. I used the colorado serum CDT for them, but regardless I've opted to vaccinate every other year per DVM suggestion. I worked at a small animal vet clinic and we did antibody titers on dogs and cats, there were dogs that only got 2 rabies vaccines ever and showed good immunity in their blood for the rest of their lives (8+ years). The "year" limit on those vaccines is every 3. This is all in small animal medicine but I think there is more interest in evolving there, than in large animal sadly.
Another thought, we had a lepto vaccine at the hospital that specifically caused reactions when it had become too cold at one point. We had a whole tray cause reactions and called the manufacturer, they asked us to check our fridge temp log and that's how we found out.
I hope the Colorado Serum works out better for you next time.

[Nanno]

Wow, thanks for the update. I'm so sorry about Jethro! I hope he makes a complete recovery, and I also hope the lumps eventually go away. A scar behind the elbow can be problematic for packers.

Did you ever call the manufacturer and tell them what happened? I think you should. They need to know if their product is potentially causing problems, but they can't know if no one tells them.

I've been thinking of doing fewer vaccinations for my packer boys. I like to do the girls when they're pregnant so the kids have that extra immunity, but I don't think everyone needs a shot every year. I'm thinking of doing the two shots as kids, then the annual booster for a couple of years, then doing them every three years or so after that. We'll see.

[Taffy]

My vet is suggesting we move the vaccination site to just behind the ribs. If there is a reaction then it will not affect the cinch area.

I did not call the manufacturer but will. I agree, they should know about this.

I still feel the risk of a severe reaction to the vaccine is minimal compared to the real risks the vaccine covers - especially tetanus - since my goats are out and about hiking.

I think more studies need done on how long the vaccines are actually effective in goats.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

That's where I give mine now, instead of the cinch area.

You guys probably aren't interested but I have to share this fascinating piece of information. Veterinarians have to get vaccinated for rabies to practice, then either get there titers checked every 2 years or get another booster. No vet has ever needed an additional booster after the original 3 (at least of the 6 I worked with). A couple still have adequate immunity with over 25 years post vaccination.

I'm one of those weirdos going to school so I can work at the CDC potentially... So I'm really passionate about this stuff, especially to research the best protocol for our beloved pets.

[Nanno]

One reason no one ever bothered to study how long vaccines work in livestock is because most of them end up on the dinner plate as young animals. I imagine most of them work a lot longer than one year.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

That is the truth.