Mystery-Virus/Rickettsial Infection/Deficiencies?

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

Nanno, I'm glad your LGD is doing better, the symptoms you describe sound like the way that lyme disease presents itself in canines it's odd that these tick borne diseases seem so present but are elusive/non existant in the testing.

I just sent out a trace elements panel on my does and Huck, and ordered a water testing kit to get a baseline and check for deficiencies.
I believe 3 deworming treatments is due to the parasite life cycle being between 14-21 days, or atleast thats how we treat in small animal medicine. That is an interesting article on the Meningeal worm i'll keep that in mind.

I don't think there has been an approved study at this point but there are many isolated studies and incidents where banamine given IM causes muscle damage in horse, cattle, and goat. I had an in depth conversation with a vet about how they gave this steer many IM injections such as, banamine, other drugs, needles that were rolled in the dirt, different sized needles and quantities of liquids, then they euthanised and cut open all the injection sites, banamine had the worst reaction to the muscle out of all the injection sites. It was suggested to gives strictly IV, or SQ but with SQ there is some question of absorption rate vs efficacy. I've found that SQ works well for low grade fevers, mild pain and non emergency situations, but in emergencies I always go IV.

To be honest, I'm not convinced as to why they suggested I use Ivermectin in the first place. Doramectin was working just fine (according to my past fecal test), and now I'm using a dewormer in the same family. I know that vets generally have a vague idea of goat medicine so I always question them but having worked with 6 vets at this point I'm willing to try what they say. Luckily I always give more dewormer than suggested. I'm giving the injectable Ivermectin orally, so they are getting 0.6mg/kg, everything I find says 0.4mg/kg besides tennessee meat goats which states to Inject the injectable at a rate of 0.9mg/kg. That was a mouthful, the good news is I will be doing another fecal soon, the last one wasn't bad the highest epg was 23.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

Dave - What mineral mix did you switch to that has better absorption?

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

16/8 goat mineral plus by CHS (payback). Sulfate and oxide based minerals dont get absorbed very well. Rough 80% just pass through the goat. The payback mineral mix is amino acid based for some of the important minerals. We also leave out seperate, their true trace mineral mix. Its 96% salt. This way they have the choice of going for salt or minerals. We do multimin90 shots 3 to 4 times a year. More if the animal is looking like its still in need. We still get our hay locally so we pour the minerals to the animals. It a very painful injection though

Good info on the banamine. A shame it does so much damage.

[Nanno]

Dave, I wonder if your goats get deficient in part because you have to feed so much alfalfa. I learned this year that alfalfa tends to be high in molybdenum which binds copper and selenium. This causes what is known as a "secondary deficiency," meaning they get enough minerals in their diet but can't absorb them because they are being blocked by an excess of other minerals such as iron, sulfur, or molybdenum. It was discovered that cows on primarily alfalfa diets have trouble with copper and selenium deficiencies even when their intake of those minerals is adequate. I learned that the hard way this past year because all of my goats were copper and selenium deficient. This was the first year I fed primarily alfalfa. From now on I'll be feeding primarily grass with alfalfa as a supplement for does in milk.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

Thats interesting about absorption. I have the same payback mineral mix, I never thought about adding another mix that's primarily salt. I sprinkle salt on my hay bags after I fill them in the winter particularly to encourage them to drink more, it works well. I'm very interested to see what my trace element test says.

I recently read about alfalfa causing a secondary deficiency, did switching to grass primarily resolve the deficiencies? I feel like it's important to provide adequate calcium to young bucks and wethers but after all this mineral research I have fear regardless of what I do.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Never heard that about the alfalfa. Would help explain why we can never get ahead of the minerals. Being dry lotted, alfalfa is the only thing our animals get to eat for most of the year. Spring they get to enjoy some grass. I trim the assie willow trees and give them the leaves and sticks but thats just a few days outta the year. Will do some research into that. Thanks Nanno

[Nanno]

I recently read about alfalfa causing a secondary deficiency, did switching to grass primarily resolve the deficiencies? I feel like it's important to provide adequate calcium to young bucks and wethers but after all this mineral research I have fear regardless of what I do.

You might have read about secondary deficiencies in the post I made a couple of months ago which I've linked below. I have the same problem where the more I research something, the more I fear doing it wrong. The fact is, we may all be overthinking and overcomplicating things. A healthy diet should be balanced, and a pure alfalfa diet is not balanced. Calcium is good, but just because something is good doesn't necessarily mean more is better. Cuzco ate plain grass hay his whole life and always looked healthy with good weight, a lustrous coat, and strong hooves. He had access to a trace mineral horse block. I never knew there was such a thing as loose minerals until we'd had Cuzco for ten years. I never wormed him because I didn't know what to use for goats and he didn't look like he had parasites. That goat never got sick, and there were many times when he probably should have! While it's possible we may have simply been lucky, it's a good reminder that goats can thrive on care that is often considered less-than-optimal.  

Here's my thread about alfalfa and molybdenum poisoning: 
http://www.packgoatcentral.com/forums/sh...p?tid=2156

There are links in that thread to two articles about the topic in regards to cattle on alfalfa diets. I don't want to derail this thread too much, especially since I think a discussion about this would be more beneficial to others if kept in the health section where it can more easily be found in the future, so I'll make my reply to Dave there.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

I read your thread and the article links with in it, very interesting.

The trace element panel came back for my the 4 goats I tested, all are zinc deficient. Hucks copper levels are too high, and Echo's are just below normal.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

This all started July 1st, and today August 2nd we are still dealing with the aftermath. I wanted the "Pacific Crest Trail" thread to stay goal based. With all this health and wellness discussion and shared knowledge we agreed that it would be beneficial to post this information in an easier place to find for others.

[Nanno]

I've read that blood panels are not especially good for testing copper levels. You really need a liver biopsy to get an accurate picture of that particular mineral since I think the amount in the blood can vary day to day. What matters is how much is stored in the liver. I'm not sure if zinc is similar in that regard. I believe blood tests for selenium are pretty accurate.