The ultimate pack goat.......in theory

[deschutes dawn]

I looked at some Ibex sites-Texas of course. There is one that has semen to sell. No price. Of course.

[nebs]

A person just needs to check with their state to make sure it is legal to posess first.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Was doing some research and as far as I could come up with, male Capra (goats) are not listed in "dangerous species" Only Class mammalia (any warm-blooded vertebrate having the skin more or less covered with hair; young are born alive except for the small subclass of monotremes and nourished with milk). There is no listing of a full blood hybrid male warm blooded vertebrate. Would take some more looking into but if semen was purchased, used to cross with a goat and a male was produced. It seems to be legal to own. The problem comes in with the females. As they would be illegal to keep and or breed without a license. Granted it would take a lawyer or someone who knows their way around the rules and definitions to find either a way through the crack or to find that it was sealed up.

Ibex are classified as a subspecies of goat. Capra (genus).

[Jake Levi]

Ibex are considered genetically to be the ancestor of the domestic goat. And if we look at some of the Mideast goat breeds there is a very strong family resemblence. Also to a couple of the other Mideast wild goats, the Markhor and others. I suspect the reality is that in each country there is some unintentional breeding with the wild, just as in AK many sled dogs have wolf mixed in especially out in the villages, where there are any sled dogs, a large number of the sled dogs have been replaced with snow machines.

In any case, hybrid goats are going to be every bit as difficult to prove ancestry on as with hybrid dog/wolf crosses. A dog is a dog and a goat is a goat. They would have to be looking for other markers and even mitochondrial DNA. And that, on sled dogs only shows that the dam had some wolf breeding somewhere, 'back when'.

For my part, I am in MI, and expect to be, we have no wild goats or wild sheep. All bovidae must have TB tests, cattle, sheep, goats etc, no exeptions. I think it is doable, I will be on the lookout for Alpine Ibex doelings, I wouldnt want a buck, the does are more herd oriented , we shall see. Meanwhile I am on the waiting list for a pair of Kiko kids. Life goes on.

[Jake Levi]

Ibex are considered genetically to be the ancestor of the domestic goat. And if we look at some of the Mideast goat breeds there is a very strong family resemblence. Also to a couple of the other Mideast wild goats, the Markhor and others. I suspect the reality is that in each country there is some unintentional breeding with the wild, just as in AK many sled dogs have wolf mixed in especially out in the villages, where there are any sled dogs, a large number of the sled dogs have been replaced with snow machines.

In any case, hybrid goats are going to be every bit as difficult to prove ancestry on as with hybrid dog/wolf crosses. A dog is a dog and a goat is a goat. They would have to be looking for other markers and even mitochondrial DNA. And that, on sled dogs only shows that the dam had some wolf breeding somewhere, 'back when'.

For my part, I am in MI, and expect to be, we have no wild goats or wild sheep. All bovidae must have TB tests, cattle, sheep, goats etc, no exeptions. I think it is doable, I will be on the lookout for Alpine Ibex doelings, I wouldnt want a buck, the does are more herd oriented , we shall see. Meanwhile I am on the waiting list for a pair of Kiko kids. Life goes on.

I am still looking for Ibex, does actually, bucks are all priced for future hunting trophys. There will be some exotic auctions coming up this spring, the trick is to find one in driving distance. Looking at the mature weight of the Ibex bucks a Kiko cross should produce a very nice sized wether. I really want to find out first hand.

[nebs]

I will keep my fingers crossed for you Levi. If you actually pull this off I hope will post up A LOT of pics and I get first dibs on any offspring you want to sell

[deschutes dawn]

That is very cool Jake. Good luck with your Ibex search. I would love to be able to try something like that!

[Nanno]

Do you worry that having the dams be feral might have a more negative impact on the offspring than if the dams were domestic and the sires were feral? I mean, it seems that an awful lot of what an animal learns is from their mother. If the mother is bonded with people, the kids are too and vice versa.

It will be an interesting experiment, but I would definitely worry about the bonding issue. A lot of people have tried feral/domestic hybrids over the years, and the outcomes are usually pretty dodgy. You often get an animal that is less trusting of people, rather unpredictable (especially around strangers), more difficult to train, and almost impossible to sell should your situation change. And I wonder if they will have any work ethic at all. The biggest, strongest goat in the world will do you no good if it is skittish, won't follow you, or refuses to work when the going gets tough.

Of course, I can't say too much--I'm crossing Alpines with Nubians to see if I can get pack goats even though Nubians are well-known for being loud, lazy, and stupid. Cuzco may just be an anomaly, but I can't help but feel that it may have something to do with the fact that his mother was the Alpine and he took on her personality. If nothing else, at least I have a fall-back on the dairy market if they all turn out to be packing duds. Human kind would never accomplish anything if we didn't experiment once in a while!

[nebs]

I wondered the same thing Nanno. That's why if it was legal in my state I would stick with goat does, but have them artificially inseminated with an alpine ibex sire. Keeping pure ibex sounds like a pain. One breeder I talked to said when he bottle raised pure alpine ibex, they tamed right up. Even tame, they still sound like escape artists when they want to.

[Jake Levi]

I wondered the same thing Nanno. That's why if it was legal in my state I would stick with goat does, but have them artificially inseminated with an alpine ibex sire. Keeping pure ibex sounds like a pain. One breeder I talked to said when he bottle raised pure alpine ibex, they tamed right up. Even tame, they still sound like escape artists when they want to.

I am looking for Alpine Ibex doelings. There are quite a few, a lot actually of the smaller Nubians in Texas on game farms and hunting places. Alpines not so common down there.

There is quite a bit of information scattered on the sites on raising them, the does stick together, near food and water, the bucks roam a bit if chased out of an area until they find a band of does. The kids can be hand raised and if so become very domesticated. Older doe raised ones take more time, you can say much the same for the herded meat goats. I have seen a lot of photos of kids and half grown ones with people, especially children. I am pretty sure that hand raised Ibex doelings raised with pack goats would join this kind of herd right off and be content.

The one thing that concerns me is prices quoted. You can buy a herd of pack goats for the price of one. One bright spot there though is a number of exotic animal auctions around the country, a number in Texas but also in MO and Ohio. Additionally there is a classified site called ExoticAnimalsforSale.net that has a long list of listings for all kinds of exotic animals, from monkeys to camels and zebras. Also listing there for a few auctions.

Also you can post on a section for Wanted.

So I think it is doable, it will just take some time.