Aspiration Pneumonia - Hope?

[Nanno]

Currently I have my does, Pluto, and Huck together. Then Kingsley, Rafiki and Bagheera. 
I want my pregnant does separate from my boys and also for my packers/potential packers to be housed together so they can form their pecking order for the trail. 

At this point I'm trying to decide whether the additional goat should be a lamancha or oberhasli kid to house with him, or if I should just do a Nigerian. I would like to consider a lamancha or oberhasli doe so that next year hopefully I can house Rafiki, and the new doe with our older does. 

So far its a scattered plan, but we are figuring logistics. Thank you for the input on his size. I can't even imagine him at 100 pounds but fingers crossed he gets to the triple digits.

You'll be surprised how much a goat grows between 10-15 months! 

Why don't you try putting Rafiki in with your does and move Pluto and Huck in with the other boys? Even though the girls are probably much bigger than Rafiki right now, they will likely be gentler with him than the other boys once they're used to him, and the girls will soon stop growing as much. I've found that boys and girls don't fight with each other nearly as hard as girls fighting with girls or boys fighting with boys. 

Personally, I would skip the Nigerian. They're cute, but they can be hard to keep fenced and they have a tendency toward obesity. Since Rafiki may need free choice access to food, you don't want him with a goat that needs to be kept on a diet. If you get him a companion, I think a doeling would be a good choice.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

Funny you suggest that, one of my does named Echo, is just as nasty as Pluto. I tried putting Rafiki with the does, and while I think Kivuli and Denali would accept his presence after a few days Echo is unnecessarily rude to Denali on a daily basis. His little legs just can't out run her as she is my most athletic.

I'm going to try again but don't have a lot of hope as she laid him on his back last week and continued to bash him while he was down. Poor guy I had to save him by throwing my water bucket scrubber at her.

Good thought with Nigerian and obesity, not something I thought about but see frequently. Guess the plan now is to see if I can get Rafiki and the does to coexist safely, and if not this year get him a friend to grow up with until moving in with the big girls next year.

Thanks for the suggestions and sharing your experience!

[Nanno]

I wonder if he could be safely kept with just one or two of your current does. I had a very nasty doe once (who we eventually culled in large part for that very reason) and I generally kept her with the boys because she would plaster the other girls and hit them after she got them down. The boys outgrew her and while she would still pick fights with them, she couldn't actually hurt them so it worked out ok.

It seems like young goats are the most brutal to one another. You'll find as your herd matures that the older ones will generally settle down and assume the role of keeping peace among the younger ones. A herd with no older mentors can start to resemble "Lord of the Flies". I used to think keeping Cuzco with my young herd would be dangerous, but it turned out that although he was huge and mean and ornery, he also knew his job and kept everyone from beating each other to death. He was the only one who could truly keep our mean doe, Lilly, in line. He was also the only goat (or beast) that Lilly was afraid of. I think Cuzco hated her because she was mean for no reason. If Cuzco was ever mean, it was to enforce good behavior. He was able to impart many of his good leadership qualities on to our young wethers before he died, which has proven invaluable to our herd. Hopefully a strong but gentle wether will eventually rise to the top of your herd and help keep peace among the natives.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

It might be possible to keep Rafiki with the two nicer does, but keeping my mean does with the boys isn't very practical. One of my motivating factors to get males and females divided is there different diets.

I've heard that before, that young goats are the worst with out a mature goat to kind of settle ongoing disputes. I'm excited to see the change of my herd as the ages change and there becomes different generations. "Lord of the Flies" is a great description, haha!

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

He has grown but not much!
[img]IMG_20171023_172403_edited by Kataya Uren, on Flickr[/img]

[Nanno]

Aw, he's a cutie. I love his white "old man" eyebrows! He doesn't look very thrifty. His coat looks rough and he's got a potbelly. I'm sure you're doing all you can to fix whatever is causing him to be a "poor doer". He actually looks a little copper deficient. I'm sure you're giving enough copper, but I wonder if maybe he's getting too much of a copper antagonist such as iron, sulfur, or molybdenum in his diet and it's blocking his uptake.

How do you feed your does and wethers differently? I don't usually feed my boys and girls different diets, but I did last year and regretted it. I fed everyone too much alfalfa last year, but the girls got even more than the boys and they suffered from copper and selenium deficiencies during kidding season because of it. I sometimes feel that I overcomplicate things. Some of the healthiest goats I've seen are ones that get almost no care at all and no special diet (like how we fed Cuzco for years and years!). Sometimes it's instructive to keep that in mind when I find myself overanalyzing feed, minerals, medication, and housing. I don't want to neglect my goats by any means, but as I discovered last year, it's easy to become paranoid and end up causing problems through over-management.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

Aw, he's a cutie. I love his white "old man" eyebrows! He doesn't look very thrifty. His coat looks rough and he's got a potbelly. I'm sure you're doing all you can to fix whatever is causing him to be a "poor doer". He actually looks a little copper deficient. I'm sure you're giving enough copper, but I wonder if maybe he's getting too much of a copper antagonist such as iron, sulfur, or molybdenum in his diet and it's blocking his uptake.

How do you feed your does and wethers differently? I don't usually feed my boys and girls different diets, but I did last year and regretted it. I fed everyone too much alfalfa last year, but the girls got even more than the boys and they suffered from copper and selenium deficiencies during kidding season because of it. I sometimes feel that I overcomplicate things. Some of the healthiest goats I've seen are ones that get almost no care at all and no special diet (like how we fed Cuzco for years and years!). Sometimes it's instructive to keep that in mind when I find myself overanalyzing feed, minerals, medication, and housing. I don't want to neglect my goats by any means, but as I discovered last year, it's easy to become paranoid and end up causing problems through over-management.

Yes his eyebrows are the best, they move when he looks around and its just so cute. He is a special guy, we've started to wonder about our water, it hasn't been tested an a couple years so that's next on the list of whats up with Rafiki. Otherwise his bloodwork looks good and all his vitals are normal, his fecals are perfect, and the cashmere beneath his coat is super thick already. His spine fur is extra long because I shaved the rest of his body over the summer and gave him a mohawk, but as for being bleached I don't know. With the number of vets we work with they say I shouldn't need to bolus, leading to thinking maybe something is off in the water or somewhere else. That being said, Hucks fur was crappy, bleached and curled, we thought it was a copper deficiency and think we overdosed him because his copper was fine and his zinc was depleated. Huck's trace element panel showed toxic levels of copper in his serum, which I know isn't a super accurate way of telling but he also had other signs of copper toxicity, an abnormal muscle value, poor posture, lethargy, and slight tinge of yellow to his mucous membranes. Which was all before/during/after the herd sickness we went through this summer. Truth is everything is/was so mixed up we decided to feed as suggested by a ruminant nutritionist, supplement zinc, and restest trace elements when we send our preg tests in. Otherwise, we are trying to to manage it so much... for now.

Both my does and wether/bucks get free choice grass hay, and minerals. My does get a feeding of alfalfa & lespedeza pellets once a day based on weight, and my wethers get fed alfalfa every other day. Grain is given to does based on body condition, pregnancy. Then wethers/bucks under a year get grain every other day. I had the lespedeza pellets shipped to WA from SE US and it was really expensive, I'm going to use them as a trial with my does only, a trial. Huge difference feeding 3 does vs 8 goats total, however if I see it works to keep away barberpole than I will try and round up local goat people to go in on a larger shipment.

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

[img]IMG_20170812_174003 by Kataya Uren, on Flickr[/img]

Here's another recent photo, with his size 2 halter..

[Nanno]

Wow... Size 2 halter? And he's swimming in it! He is a tiny little guy. I'm glad his undercoat is coming in thick and soft. That's a great sign.

I've never heard of lespedeza. What's it supposed to do for barberpole worms?

[GoldenTreePackGoats]

The studies explain it better than I can. But it seems promising and with my herds bugs being 100% ivermectin resistant when I've never used ivermectin I'm willing to try and dilute the resistant genes of our barber pole by other means. For now I'm doing it as a trial to see if it works and if it's worth it. 

Study 1

Study 2

More info

Rafiki's head is always the last part to grow when he has a growth spurt. First he becomes a blimp, then he gets long, then tall, and finally his head catches up and becomes more proportional to the rest of him. His tooth pick legs are starting to get thicker too.