New pack saddle

[Nanno]

I'm holding out in the hopes that he simplifies the straps, and most of all I want to see a design where the pad is not attached to the saddle tree. I don't like saddle/pad combos because the padding is always the first thing that needs to be replaced (lots of experience in this on horse saddles--there's a reason military and pack saddles never incorporate the padding). Straps and buckles can be replaced yourself, but a saddle with incorporated padding will have to be sent back to the manufacturer every time that padding wears down, gets torn, compresses, etc. Even the best pads compress over time, which is another reason they should not be attached permanently to the saddle in my opinion. It's one of the basic problems with the Sopris saddle--the tree is nothing more than a large, firm roll of padding. It breaks down much faster than a wooden tree and the saddle will have to be replaced entirely when that padding deteriorates. I smell the same problem with the current Warnke design. I've already asked Marc to think about changing his saddle to use a generic pad that can be replaced by the user. If he can do that, then his saddles will outlive him and I'll be ready to try one.

We did try one of Marc's saddles on Finn at the Rendy. It fit Finn very well. It did not fit Sputnik. I think Sputnik is stuck with a Sopris saddle until someone designs a rigid tree with some sway in it like a horse saddle.

[Ms_Mudd]

ah an interesting point to be sure. Inbuilt padding in equine saddles is not a 'thing' much here in Australia, so I hadn't even considered the implications.

[Charlie Horse]

Its my dream to do so much hiking that I can destroy a few thousand bucks worth of equipment! What a great life! Its the secret pack goat joke that everyone thinks they're going to hike their goats so much that they wont need hoof trims but it never works out that way, am I right?

I agree it could be an issue someday but at the same time, there's nothing so high-tech on that saddle that you couldn't drop it off at an upholsterer to get re-covered. Everything is built in a garage, after all. Other than a few water-knife cut aluminum parts its all off the shelf, and even the fancy parts could be replicated by hand given some time. The gym I go to had all of their equipment's seats and pads re-done, regardless of brand, by a local lady and it turned out rather decent. I restore old cars so dealing with replacing discontinued parts is just part of my day-to-day I guess.

[Nanno]

ah an interesting point to be sure. Inbuilt padding in equine saddles is not a 'thing' much here in Australia, so I hadn't even considered the implications.

Are you sure? I was thinking most saddles in Australia are of the English type, which are notorious for needing padding replacements every ten years or so. Usually the panels are stuffed with wool flocking that has to be replaced as it becomes compressed over time. Synthetic foam padding was used a lot in the 1980's and '90's and was a mistake. I believe only the lower-end saddles still use it.  Foam is cheaper and lasts longer than wool, but once it eventually wears down or hardens with age, it can't be replaced even if the leather on the saddle is still in good shape. The entire saddle has to be discarded. This is one advantage of western saddles--there is no padding, so as long as the leather is still good, the saddle will never wear out. I've seen western saddles from the 1800's that are still in good working order. Military saddles (including the English versions) are generally stripped down to a leather-covered tree because the military doesn't like dealing with difficult and expensive repairs, which would include replacing the incorporated padding in a saddle. 

The same principle applies, in my opinion, to any type saddle that gets rough use, such as a pack saddle. These things get bashed on rocks and trees on a regular basis, which means that if you have a careless goat, he's going to tear up your padding long before he can destroy the saddle tree. Pads deteriorate more quickly if they can't be reversed, and it's harder to see problems with compression and material break-down when the pad is attached to the tree. Pads also deteriorate in storage if rodents get to them, or if you have any sort of issues with mildew. Straps fall victim to this too, but straps are easily replaced by the user. The pads on the Warnke saddles are a custom design that is not so easily replaced unless you have skillz like Charlie Horse. Since I do not have skillz, I'm holding out for a simpler design.   

A simpler design should also be less expensive--something we can probably all get behind. I told Marc I'd love to see his saddles outlast him and still be on the trail decades after he's gone. Phil's favorite saddle is a John Mionczyinski original from the early 1990's or so. It looks a little rough and we'll eventually have to replace the leather straps, but it's as functional is it was when it was new and should still be going strong when my goats and I are long gone. I like that in a saddle!

As you can tell from my rather lengthy response, I'm fairly passionate about saddle fit and design. I have no skills to make one myself, but I love to see what other people come up with. I've yet to see the "perfect" goat saddle design and I'm eager for the day it comes out.

[Nanno]

Its my dream to do so much hiking that I can destroy a few thousand bucks worth of equipment!  What a great life!  Its the secret pack goat joke that everyone thinks they're going to hike their goats so much that they wont need hoof trims but it never works out that way, am I right?

Hmm... my mature goats rarely need hoof trims. What am I doing right?

[Ms_Mudd]

Haven't worked out quoting yet- will give it a crack once I look over the forum a bit more.

Ahah, yes, flocking Nanno, I understand what you mean. In that case, yes, I am familiar with that.
I was thinking by padding you meant the extra bits on the Western saddles -sorry not sure of technical term as am not familiar with them, just know that the ones I have seen have some sort of fake fleece or wool padding underneath them. Ohhhh if it is just the goat equivalent of flocking, then I can deal with that. My old dressage saddle, which is nearly as old as I am has only been restuffed three times since new.

[Nanno]

To quote, just hit the "reply" button under the post you want to quote. Then manually delete the bits you aren't replying to.

Western saddles do indeed have fleece attached to the underside, but this is not a big deal to replace since it is only a surface covering. Wool flocking in an English saddle needs to be redone every 10 years or so, but it has to be done by a professional saddler and can't be done by the user unless they really knows their stuff. This is what I'm talking about. Foam flocking can't be replaced at all. In this case, the Warnke saddle has more the equivalent of foam flocking. You can't "restuff" the pads. When they're worn out, you have to replace them entirely, and since they appear to be designed specifically to fit that saddle, this is not something easily done by the user.

One thing Marc himself says over and over when talking about saddle fit is, "The tree is the saddle, and that's where you need to look for fit." This is why we should always remove pads when fitting saddles. But you can't remove the pad from the Warnke saddle, so saddle fitting is not nearly as straightforward. Pads can deceive you into thinking the tree fits better than it really does. And since Marc's tree is adjustable, you may not actually adjust it correctly because of the padding. I think it's a very good saddle, and I think it will be fine for people who know what they're doing, but it needs to be "dumbed down" a good bit for the average user. I like that he's working toward fit. This saddle fits better than any rigid tree saddle I've tried to date, but that doesn't mean I think it's perfect yet.

[goatzrule]

  Its the secret pack goat joke that everyone thinks they're going to hike their goats so much that they wont need hoof trims but it never works out that way, am I right?

Hmm... my mature goats rarely need hoof trims. What am I doing right?

What are you doing Nanno!? Almost no hoof trimming!?  Mine need done almost every six weeks on the dot.

[Nanno]

I think it's a combination of things. First off, we have a nice rock pile or two on my property and the goats love to play on them. Second, we take the whole herd for two walks a day. They're not very long walks--only about 20 minutes apiece, and we're mostly on grass--but exercise helps circulation in the hooves, which in turn strengthens the sole and walls. Stronger hooves don't need to grow as fast as weak ones which tend to crack and split and break off at the ends, stimulating the hoof to grow faster in an attempt to heal.

I've noticed my mature boys need almost no hoof trimming. Younger goats and pregnant does need it done a lot more often. Young goats' hooves grow quickly just like their bodies and they seem to need more hoof care. Pregnant does' hooves tend to weaken a lot as their pregnancy progresses because of the demands placed on their bodies by the growing fetuses. It puts a draw on their mineral and nutrient reserves, and things like hooves and hair tend to lose their condition first. During the last two months of pregnancy, a doe doesn't move as much so she needs to be trimmed more regularly to keep those weakened hooves from splitting, splaying, and curling under. If you have mostly young and pregnant goats, you will definitely need to do more hoof trimming than if you have a mature herd. I notice my fully mature does' hooves seem to hold up better even when they're pregnant.

I also have Nubian blood in most of my herd, and I've noticed that my Nubians and Nubian crosses have much stronger, lower maintenance hooves than the Alpines. My Nubian bucks had terrific hooves that rarely needed trimming even when they were young. Heck, I sold them as 2-year-olds, so they should have still been in the "need regular hoof care" category, but I didn't trim them more than every four months or so. They were hard to trim (very tough hoof walls), and they rarely needed more than a few slivers removed.

[Kat]

About a couple of comments on the Sopris:

1. "It's one of the basic problems with the Sopris saddle--the tree is nothing more than a large, firm roll of padding. It breaks down much faster than a wooden tree and the saddle will have to be replaced entirely when that padding deteriorates."

The Sopris saddle tree consists of two foam rolls of padding that are in 2 fabric cylinders with a draw cord and are thus removable/replaceable (I replaced mine in one saddle.)  What I don't like is, if you get the saddle with integrated pads - the pads are sewn onto the tree and not really removeable (I returned mine rather than cutting the pads off).

2. "The one thing that kind of turns me off is they look really fussy (warnke)--way too many straps and buckles. That is one of the big down-sides to the Sopris saddle as well"

This is how I felt initially about the Sopris, but once you get the straps set up for your goat the saddle is set and it's a breeze.  I can put it on/off the goat with just snapping open or closed 4 side-release plastic buckles.  I can see if you need to use one saddle on different goats you would be fussing with adjusting some straps, but if you dedicate one saddle per goat it is super simple after initial setup.  Just my 2 cents, and I hate fussing with complicated gear.

I did permanently tie the saddle bags on to the saddle tree for one goat using rawhide strings; Sopris now includes a center adjustment strap for this purpose which works OK on my newer saddle.