How do I nip this in the bud right now!

[SMaxwell]

I didn't post this under "Problem Goats" because this goat is normally very mellow. So I though "training" would be a better choice. Here is what's up:
Tonight I was in the pasture checking on one of my does who is due any time. My 2 year old almost 200 lb Kiko, Luke, decided to come up and take a cheap shot at her and he nailed her right in the baby basket. I was mad at him and I shoved him away on the shoulder as hard as I could (a technique that has worked to back down other goats in the past). Well, Luke lowers his head and takes a swipe at me! I think he thought I was playing with him. Well I move out of the way and hit him about as hard as I could on the shoulder again and he spins around and rears on his hind legs and assumes the position! This time he gets a boot in the side of the face in what is as close as I can muster to a Chuck Norris-esque round-house kick. This time he didn't come back after me, so I grabbed a bucket and scooped up some water out of the trough and dumped it over his head. ( I know, not exactly textbook touchy-feely training techniques, but I knew he couldn't think he got away with this). Again, usually he is Mr. Mellow...apparently something set him off when I nailed him after he hit the doe (hoping her babies are ok, they still seem to be moving around in there).
I probably should have "flipped him" but it had been a long time since I read about that and not sure on the technique and frankly it didn't come to mind in the heat of the moment. So what should I do if he tries this again? Was he just playing or challenging me?

[Charlie Horse]

I'm big on the flipping thing, but be careful. I often strain my back when doing it and I have a pretty strong back. One tends to lift too much rather than pushing them over. Its awkward.

To me it sounds like you did a perfect job. First with the kick, then with the water. I guess the next step is to see if he does this again even if provoked.

None of my goats has ever challenged me, but my yak Tibetty got her hormones and turned downright evil. Fighting a yak (very small cow) is way harder than fighting a goat, let me tell you. Sometimes being too nice to an animal gives them too much self esteem. I'm with you-- If they get physical you need to get physical, and win. I didn't win with the yak so I had to sell her to a breeder, even though her hormones passed and she was sweet again. The trust was gone along with that lovin' feelin'. (Next yak shall be a steer)

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Sounds pretty much like what I woulda done. Cept I woulda put Legion on the ground. As I have had to do twice before. Not for getting actually mean but more food aggressive. Something he has learned very well from being penned with Lincoln and a big reason why Lincoln will go and live with DD at the end of the month. And ya, watch your back. The second time I put Legion on the ground, I did tweek my back a bit. In the end it doesnt matter how you get them there. For me, Legion is way to big, strong and fast to attempt it by grabbing his body. I grabbed his horns, pulled his head to the ground and then more or less tackled him and locked him up with my legs. I never stop driving his head/horns into the ground cause he if got his head up, there would be no way I could hold him down. A few minutes of that and they calm down. Now I am not big on doing this as a good hard smack on the nose is usually more then enough but as stated, when challenged you need to get physical and WIN. The good thing with Legion is, he fully understands he did wrong and is accepting being put in his place. It takes a day or so but we are buds again and we move on.

As for the why? Its the horns. When a goat has horns they know it and are more likely to responded to the slightest sign from another goat. A tilt of the head, hair on the back standing up on end, a bucky blub or grunt, a sideways step. All of these are called presenting and is about the same thing as talking bad about someones mama. If I take Legion out into the does, its a 50/50 chance he will try to use his horns on em. If none of the other goats presents, he is fine and actually has a good time out there smelling tails. But the moment on of them presents, he is ready to use his horns. Now this isnt to say a goat with horns will do this or even to say a goat without horns wouldnt. But when you are top chit (in your eyes) and have to big pokey things for weapons. The last thing your going to do is let someone talk bad about your mama

[Nanno]

The thing about this type of playing is that it's not really playing. Play is one of the ways animals establish their pecking order. He's two years old, and I've read that it's quite common for goats his age to go through a "phase" where they start testing you.

I think it's great you used the bucket of water. I personally don't like the flip method much. I tried it on Cuzco a few times with varying results. He seems to love the physical altercation (in his mind it's better to fight and lose than not fight at all). Once he's down he's mad for about a minute before he practically goes to sleep. As soon as he's on his feet again he's ready for round two. I've had better success just giving him the "lay down!" command and then making him stay down for five minutes or so until he's calm and relaxed. He gets up in a much better, calmer frame of mind than when he's been flipped over and sat on.

For making Cuzco back down, I found that a water gun is not only much easier on me, but puts fighting out of the question. With water in play, Cuzco's urge to escalate the situation vanishes and he simply beats a hasty retreat. This worked very well right up to the time we got girls, at which point his attitude took a sudden dive and we resorted to using a shock collar during his bad spells. Hopefully Luke never needs something that drastic since you're catching it early. I wish we'd been able to train Cuzco sooner. Unfortunately, he was primarily a horse companion at that critical age and was fed and handled by several different people, some of whom allowed him to chase and intimidate them without correction.

[SMaxwell]

Thanks for all the input. A water bottle works good on my goats also and I use it frequently, especially when they rush the gate when I'm trying to get a doe out to milk. I have also used a shock collar on a few of my goats who wanted to grind my LGD puppy into dust a few years ago when we first got him. This incident just caught me totally off guard. Nanno, do you have an archive of the old posts? I believe it was Rex that did the post on "flipping." I would like to brush up on it in case the occasion presents itself again. Like you said, it might not work on him but at least it's another tool in the bag.

BTW- The doe that he bashed kidded yesterday, had two doelings and a buckling, one of the doelings was stillborn, fully developed and had not been dead long. I cant help but think that shot she took from Luke had something to do with it, maybe broke the umbilical cord or something. I've separated does out before kidding before but they are even more brutal to each other than the wethers are to them, and I don't have the space to give everyone their own private suite..

[Nanno]

Nanno, do you have an archive of the old posts? I believe it was Rex that did the post on "flipping." I would like to brush up on it in case the occasion presents itself again.

If it's in the back issues of Goat Tracks magazine then I have it. I'll try to make time to look for it in the next couple of days. In fact, I've been intending to put a lot of the good training and packing articles up on this website for a while, but the last few months have been way to busy. Phil is leaving next week for a conference and things usually get pretty quiet around here when he's gone, so I should hopefully have a nice chunk of time to work on that project.

BTW- The doe that he bashed kidded yesterday, had two doelings and a buckling, one of the doelings was stillborn, fully developed and had not been dead long. I cant help but think that shot she took from Luke had something to do with it, maybe broke the umbilical cord or something. I've separated does out before kidding before but they are even more brutal to each other than the wethers are to them, and I don't have the space to give everyone their own private suite..

Oh I'm so sorry! Poor baby. I hope Luke learned his lesson and you don't have any more problems like this. I worry that Cuzco might one day do something like that to Lilly. She's the only goat he ever hits hard. Thankfully she's very quick and is not dumb enough to hang around him much.

One thing I started doing recently during feeding time is to bring a riding crop with me. It's the kind with a wide leather popper on the end, and when the goats get to mobbing me or whacking each other too hard I'll smack them with it. It makes a loud slapping noise that startles them and makes them think they've been hit a lot harder than they actually were. It seems to be working really well. Feeding time is the only time they really hit each other hard. It took about two swats per goat to teach them not to mob me, and now all I have to do is wave it and say "No!" and everyone settles down immediately and falls into line without bickering. It's like a miracle stick!

[SMaxwell]

Might have to try the miracle stick! Or maybe my Official Indiana Jones Bullwhip! (I just know somebody on here is gonna turn us in to the ASPCA.)
Speaking of Rex, where has he been? I haven't seen him on here.

[Nanno]

Bullwhip might be a bit overkill I think.

I'd love to see Rex here, but unfortunately his contract with the folks who bought the old forum does not allow him to participate in any other goat packing forum for four years after that contract was signed. I know he's with us in spirit though.

[Taffy]

Maybe he could sign up under an alias.

Bullwhip might be a bit overkill I think.

I'd love to see Rex here, but unfortunately his contract with the folks who bought the old forum does not allow him to participate in any other goat packing forum for four years after that contract was signed. I know he's with us in spirit though.

[IdahoNancy]

Rex wrote the "flipping a goat" post in March of 2010. There is a reference to his post and the date in one of my post. I researched all of Rex's post on TGS. The archived Goat Forum posts stop on June 2010.