Hello all! Kinder Breeder Here

[MellonFriend]

Hello everyone!  I have been raising Kinder goats in the mountains of NC since 2019.  I raise my goats for milk and meat production, but this year I had a wether born that is so friendly that me and my family just can't part with him.  I don't really like having an animal that serves no purpose, and of course the thing that comes to mind for a wether to do is be a pack goat.  I have a lot of questions about if this would be possible for me and my little guy, should I post a new thread with all my questions or should I just do it on this one?

[Nanno]

Hello and welcome! I remember you well from TheGoatSpot! (I was Damfino, but I don't hang out there any more.)

Anyway, it sounds like you've got a great little project started. Kinders are lovely little goats and quite sturdy even though they're small. The most suitable body type is one that is longer-legged and not paunchy. Keeping weight off your wether will probably be your biggest challenge for that breed. But if you walk him regularly and keep him fet he should do fine. Since he's smaller you'll have a harder time finding a pack saddle that fits, but some makers do build saddles for small goats. You may also be able to get away with using a pack built for dogs if it's designed properly with spinal relief and enough shoulder room. Kinders are strong for their size, but endurance might be a problem if you're into long hikes. You might also look into training your wether to pull a wagon or cart. Cart goats don't usually require quite so much endurance as packgoats since you're usually not going all day, but strength is a huge asset. It's super fun to drive a goat in a parade or take them to birthday parties and community events where you can give goat cart rides to kids!

Feel free to ask any questions you have. This is a pretty quiet forum these days, but there are a few folks still hanging around.

[Charlie Horse]

I'd like to see pics. I'm not familiar with that breed.

[MellonFriend]

Hello and welcome! I remember you well from TheGoatSpot! (I was Damfino, but I don't hang out there any more.)

Anyway, it sounds like you've got a great little project started. Kinders are lovely little goats and quite sturdy even though they're small. The most suitable body type is one that is longer-legged and not paunchy. Keeping weight off your wether will probably be your biggest challenge for that breed. But if you walk him regularly and keep him fet he should do fine. Since he's smaller you'll have a harder time finding a pack saddle that fits, but some makers do build saddles for small goats. You may also be able to get away with using a pack built for dogs if it's designed properly with spinal relief and enough shoulder room. Kinders are strong for their size, but endurance might be a problem if you're into long hikes. You might also look into training your wether to pull a wagon or cart. Cart goats don't usually require quite so much endurance as packgoats since you're usually not going all day, but strength is a huge asset. It's super fun to drive a goat in a parade or take them to birthday parties and community events where you can give goat cart rides to kids!

Feel free to ask any questions you have. This is a pretty quiet forum these days, but there are a few folks still hanging around.

Hey Damfino, now Nanno!  I thought that was you!  I've missed you over on TGS.  I'll have to direct people over there who have pack goat questions to over here.  There's no one over there who knows anything about pack goats.  

My little guy is looking like he'll be on the leggier side, so that's a plus.  We don't ever do any long hikes anyway, so he could probably keep up just fine.  We wouldn't need him to carry much weight either, just his company would be fun enough.    

Regulations would be a big question for me.  Where would I go to find that kind of thing out?  I came across that in NC I would need a special permit to take goats in state parks, but what about outside of parks?  If it's a trail that allows dogs, would goats likely be allowed?

My second question is we have a lot of rhododendrons on many of the trails we walk on.  Do pack goats tend to browse as they are hiking or... not so much?  

Third question is can he be a single pack goat?  Will he be uncomfortable hiking with us without another goat?  We are a pretty large human group (never hiking with less than six) if that makes a difference.

[MellonFriend]

I'd like to see pics.  I'm not familiar with that breed.

They are really wonderful.  I love them so much.   My picture file sizes seem too big.    Here, I've got pictures up over here ->  You can see my adults there too: https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/mell...47/page-25  The latest picture there are a little outdated, he's almost three weeks old now. His name is Mr. Moon. He's the more spotted one in the photos.

[Nanno]

Having goat companions on hikes is so much fun, even if they don't carry anything.

As far as regulations go, I'm not familiar with rules out east. However, I've often come to the conclusion that, unless something is explicitly prohibited then it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. State parks often have a standing rule that if something is not explicitly allowed then it is automatically prohibited. The good side of this is that it means goats are not actually banned. They simply haven't been allowed because no one ever thought to ask if they could be included in the list of permitted animals. Trail associations are usually very easy to work with and they like having more user groups on their trails because it means more potential for help with trail maintenance. If you're interested in taking your packgoat into your state parks, I encourage you to contact the agency in charge of the parks. They will put you in touch with the right people and could get you on a meeting agenda. If you were to make an educational presentation about packgoats the trails committee could potentially change the rule with one simple vote. I've never gone through this particular process myself since I live in Colorado and almost all the trails are currently open to packgoats. However, I think you might do well to approach your state parks agency and see if you can have goats added to their list of allowed animals. Requesting that horse trails be opened to packgoats is a reasonable proposition. If a trail is limited to foot traffic only, it usually means it is extremely popular (crowded!) and is therefore not suitable for taking packgoats. But there's no reason whatever why horse trails shouldn't allow goats. If you decide to approach your state officials let me know and I can help you put together a presentation. 

Federal lands in your area should be open to packgoats I believe. The Appalachian Trail has pretty strict rules about all kinds of animals and I don't believe packstock of any kind are allowed. When it comes to any trails that don't have posted rules, I fall back on the "better to ask forgiveness" side of things.  

As for your second question, yes, goats do like to browse as they hike. We have so few poisonous plants where I live that I am not a very good resource as to keeping goats out of things like rhododendron. However, we have a lot of packgoat people who live up in the northwest part of the country, and they have to contend with mountain laurel, which is related to rhododendron and similarly as toxic. I believe some use muzzles in places where poisonous plants are thick. Others may keep their goats leashed with a halter so they can redirect their goat's head if it tries to eat something it shouldn't. In my limited experience, goats are unlikely to eat toxic plants if they have access to plenty of good forage. The worst poisonings I've heard of have always been when somebody feeds garden clippings to goats in their own enclosure, or when goats penned on drylot get out and start gorging. Goats with limited access to pasture/browse at home are often very greedy when they get on the trail and are more likely to grab everything in sight instead of being their more typically choosy selves. But once again, I am not very well educated on the toxic plants subject so hopefully someone else will chime in. 

Finally, yes! Your goat can go by himself with a group of people. Some goats actually prefer being the only goat because it means they get 100% of the human attention. They may cry and fret when they first leave the others, but once you're out on the trail you become their herd and they stop looking for other goats immediately and will stick with you like glue. My first packgoat was an only goat, and he never did get used to sharing his humans later in life when we added more goats. If Phil and I ever took a walk in bad weather, the other goats would hide in their shelters but ol' Cuzco never failed to come with us in any kind of weather. Our current big packgoat, Finn, also seems to enjoy it when Phil and I take him for a hike without any other goats. Adding more people doesn't seem to make a difference. As long as your packgoat is with one person he knows and loves, he's perfectly happy.

[MellonFriend]

So much great information there.  Thank you so much for all that.  I doubt I would try changing the rules around me at this point since I'm not even 100% sure packing is something I can actually do, so it wouldn't be very authentic for me to start something like that, I don't feel.   Asking for forgiveness instead of permission sounds like a good way to handle it for trails where the rules are ambiguous.  I'll have to look at horse trails in the area, that's not something I had thought of. 

Yes we here have both mountain laurel and rhododendron species in our forests.  I was wondering if some kind of muzzle would be doable, or similarly a halter, so that's good to know.

And yay! that he can be a single, since I didn't really want to dedicate more space to yet another "pet" if two was more appropriate.   I am amazed at how attatched to us he is.  He will leave his mom and come and follow us even in the rain!  He talks to me every time he sees me, and it's like he'd rather be with people than other goats. 

Well it sounds like this could be something fun to try!    I guess I'm off to do a ton of research!  I'm sure I'll come up with more questions.

[dragonmaker]

Good to see you! I know you from TGS (I’m singinggoatgirl there). I tend to keep quiet, but love reading from the experts here! You found the right people for packing questions!

[MellonFriend]

Good to see you! I know you from TGS (I’m singinggoatgirl there). I tend to keep quiet, but love reading from the experts here! You found the right people for packing questions!

Hey you!  With you being a member of the soapmaking forum too, that puts you on all of the forums I frequent.    I didn't know you had any pack goats.

[Charlie Horse]

Hah those ARE cute babies. Might only be good for carrying waterbottles and sandwiches if they're that small. Kind of like a dog with a pack. But to be honest, thats all that I need to carry 9 of 10 trips. That 10th trip though.....