Pack Goat Ban in the Wind River Range

[Nanno]

Great posts! Thanks guys.

[Taffy]

I think we can learn a lot from the way the Backcountry Horsemen promote themselves. We do what they do but with minimal/no footprint like horses and mules. http://www.backcountryhorse.com/

What other organizations do you think we may be able to partner with to help promote goatpacking?

[trail goats]

In Oregon there is a tv/radio show that is called Comcast Outdoor GPS. It's a live show they do several times a week and it's all about fishing, hunting, and outdoor lifestyles.
They do interviews with hunting and fishing guides, outdoorsmen, odfw and forest service guys. It's all about real people enjoying the outdoors.
I have met the host a couple times and this seems to be the type of thing they may be interested in. I believe the show airs in Oregon and Washington.
There are a lot of hunters and fisherman who may be interested in learning more about pack goats. That's what got me into goats.

[vigilguy]

I am posting this so that all of you are aware of what is being stated in the Blue Mountain National Forest Draft Environmental Impact Statement----

From the Blue Mountains DEIS--- “Bighorn sheep are attracted to domestic sheep and goats (Onderka et al. 1988, Schommer and Woolever 2001)” —There is absolutely NO science or studies indicating bighorn sheep are attracted to goats.

Also, to implicate (in the DEIS) the feral goat in the bighorn die-offs in Hells Canyon without mentioning the Rudolph scientific study, is an obvious attempt to distort the facts. Note that none of the science that involves goats is cited by the Forest Service. Schommer, being a biologist, KNOWS what the Rudolph papers say, and he knows that the feral goat DID NOT cause the massive die-offs in Hells Canyon in the early 90's. Why didn't he mention that?

It makes me believe that Schommer (who is based on this Forest) is hand-picking the science that will support his argument. That’s not the type of unbiased “hard look” at the facts and science that NEPA requires.

[Taffy]

Charlie (Vigilguy), it was great talking with you yesterday.

The lack of documented and credible science will hopefully be the downfall of their arguments for banning packgoats.

I look forward to reading NAPGA's "Best Management Practices." It might be good to post them here, too.

I'm wondering if we need to move all of the Blue Mtn. posts to their own thread?

[TOU]

In addition to these much needed donations. I think we really to think about going on a recruiting/membership drive...& let people know becoming dues paying members alone would be hugely helpful. Also, if they used to be, to once again become dues paying members again. Heck, it is only $20. Think about it...if we got our numbers up to the +2100 that are on the mailing list, we would likely have more near enough.


Ken

[TOU]

What do you all think about approaching our favorite Goat oriented Vets about becoming a "NAPgA Preferred Vet" on the NAPgA site. Ones that have donated to our cause? Something like $500 gets them a year or two in the monthly newsletter as well as linked on the NAPgA website as a Vet that is in support of NAPgA in general & our lad use cause specifically? This would be doubly valuable as they would gain a greater referral base of Goat patients & we could have at least a couple of great Vets per State that are goat oriented & especially Packgoat oriented. Win/Win! What do you think Larry, Charlie, NAPgA Board?

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

My vet might do it just to do it as he picked up a prospect from me last year, but he is already stretched well beyond his means for clients. The thought of more might actually run him off! LOL

[Taffy]

I agree, Dave. Matt is already in high demand! But that's because he's so awesome!

My vet might do it just to do it as he picked up a prospect from me last year, but he is already stretched well beyond his means for clients. The thought of more might actually run him off! LOL

---

I think it's a good idea Tou but the reality is vets (and all businesses) need to put their advertising dollars where they will stretch the furthest. The audience for packgoat enthusiasts is limited. Since membership in NAPga is inexpensive I think we/they could purchase an annual membership in their name and accomplish much the same.

What do you all think about approaching our favorite Goat oriented Vets about becoming a "NAPgA Preferred Vet" on the NAPgA site. Ones that have donated to our cause? Something like $500 gets them a year or two in the monthly newsletter as well as linked on the NAPgA website as a Vet that is in support of NAPgA in general & our lad use cause specifically? This would be doubly valuable as they would gain a greater referral base of Goat patients & we could have at least a couple of great Vets per State that are goat oriented & especially Packgoat oriented. Win/Win! What do you think Larry, Charlie, NAPgA Board?

[TOU]

I hear you Taffy & it makes allot of sense...it is a limited market currently, but it will continue to grow if we maintain our access abilities.

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To All,

One point I think to be true though no matter how limited our numbers, in regards to us Packers,...is that we probably tend to be willing to spend more money in regards to Vet care etc. on our wethered male goats than the average Goat owners, be they brushers, meat or dairy. THAT is valuable. Now if a Vet already has more clients than they want, than it may not be a valuable advertisement for them. Maybe though...it is just about supporting their clients in a very worthy cause...to be able to help them be able to access the NF & do what we do. Heck...maybe its reason to pick one Vet over another, I don't know. I do know this, if everything else is equal between two given Vets...if I know a Vet has supported NAPgA over one who hasn't, I will probably pick the former even if further away. That goes for anything...Pack Goat Breeders, equipment sellers, livestock supply...anything.

I will also tell you this, if we aren't able to pack there will be lost business in general...how significant? Who knows, I realize we are currently a smaller group...but it is growing in serious interest. (I rarely go on a trail and not talk to at least a dozen or two people that didn't know much about it before.) I personally have spent several $1000's on goats, goat packing equipment, food & supplies in the past year with no monetary returns.

At the risk of being a bit outspoken and harsh on this last point...not directed at any company or person...but to be very frank, if there are PackGoat suppliers of Pack Goat equipment, PackGoat livestock or supplies etc...and they are not a supporters of this cause with a NAPgA membership in the least, I am not so sure I will personally be wanting to support them in the future. I will definitely support those who I know are...I "votes with my monies". On that note, I have approached a certain livestock equipment supplier who has agreed to donate $1000 to NAPgA later this week. I will also be approaching three of my local farm supply stores for financial support...in addition to my goats personal Vet. What does it hurt? Are they going to stop letting me buy from them? I don't think so...All they can say is no.

On this line of thinking...again I mean no offense to any...but I feel that if folks are involved in Goat Packing in the slightest or think that they might want to be...there is also absolutely ZERO acceptable EXCUSES for them to not joining NAPgA right now for the whopping $20 a year it cost. I blow $20 a week on all sorts of garbage. Join & pay for 2 or three years in advance. If we have petty grievances or differences of opinion, politics or otherwise with a given person in Packing or even at NAPgA, its time to put that kind of thing away for now and support this cause. On the topic of membership, I think we need booths at County Fairs as well as 4H involvement to increase membership & interest. Yes it means more people on the trails but...IT MEANS MORE GOAT PACKERS on the trails.

Folks, talk to your friends & family that want to or have gone on trips with you. Get them to join as honorary members this year. Heck, if I can think of how & where to do it, I'm personally thinking about offering a onetime camping or hunting trip using my goats & gear for an auction item & donating 100% of the proceeds. Just need to figure out some logistics of how to go about it & figure the time. Hmmm...EBAY? GunBroker? Still thinking this one through...ideas are welcome.

Here is the deal, if we were to lose this specific Precedence setting case, it will domino from there one way or the other...including current National Forest areas that are NOT known for BHS. Think about it...if we were to lose and precedence is set, what is to stop them from saying "we are thinking about introducing/re-introducing" BHS to an area from a 1000 years ago? I know for a fact that in the last year two PackGoat outfitters in my general vicinity that are no longer using pack goats to outfit & have sold all PG's & equipment because of the hassle they were receiving about their permits from the FS. Guess what? Neither forest areas are currently listed but the FS is preemptively restricted access. The outfitters can't afford to fight it as they still need to outfit & guide.

On this last note, if we were to completely loose the NF access permanently I can't say that I too won't be selling my thousands of dollars worth of goats & equipment...likely at a serious & steep loss. If I can't access NF with them, where am I supposed to go where I live? It's not like they are a business for me that I still make money off of...I don't milk or breed them, I have no desire to. I feed & spend money on equipment & Vet care for a reason...it's worth it to me & my family...if I can access the National Forest with them. However I would instantly stop spending money in these related industries if I didn't have access. It's ALL about the goats and packing with them with my family & friends...but there is no way I could justify a herd of 12 otherwise.

Anyway, I know I am rambling & the words maybe a bit strong but this is serious & so am I...hopefully I make some sense.

Warmest Regards,

Ken