Pack Goat Closure extending to Oregon

[vigilguy]

"The primary argument though, is that the BHS are ATTRACTED to domestic sheep and goats, which increases the risk."

Yes, this is an argument posed by some. According to NApgA's attorney, THAT statement is NOT based on any science or any studies, and is frankly, dishonest and in-accurate. It is merely someone's biased opinion. If you asked Larry Robinson about his interaction with BHS last summer, he'll tell you that the BHS, once they spotted Larry and his packgoats, they took off like a scalded cat, and had NO interest in Larry or his herd.

This is also one of the reasons why we suggest in our Best Management Practices putting bells on the collars of our goats.

[igoat]

"The primary argument though, is that the BHS are ATTRACTED to domestic sheep and goats, which increases the risk."

Yes, this is an argument posed by some. According to NApgA's attorney, THAT statement is NOT based on any science or any studies, and is frankly, dishonest and in-accurate. It is merely someone's biased opinion. If you asked Larry Robinson about his interaction with BHS last summer, he'll tell you that the BHS, once they spotted Larry and his packgoats, they took off like a scalded cat, and had NO interest in Larry or his herd.

This is also one of the reasons why we suggest in our Best Management Practices putting bells on the collars of our goats.

Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that I concur with the argument, rather I mean to just point out that it is the most pervasive, as to why our opponents justify banning goats from the forest and NOT horses (for example) even though other species can possibly transfer diseases other than just domestic sheep and goats.

However, I think that we should be cautious in backing up our arguments with purely subjective anecdotal experiences, because in the eyes of the scientific community they are less than persuasive. They (our opponents) could easily argue that there could have been a plethora of other variables at play that sent those particular BHS running when Larry encountered them. Perhaps they sensed a lion that he did not, or any other number of unknown reasons.

Furthermore, anyone who has ever driven down the hwy or driven the roads near Salmon or Challis ID in the winter or spring can attest to how tame some BHS populations can be. Ive seen humans walk to within a few yards of ewes and lambs to snap photos, with little to no apparent concern from the BHS themselves. So to say that a mere human presence will always deter the BHS from our camps might not solve the whole issue in the minds of FS ban proponents. Likewise, I for one have encountered wildlife in the woods, mostly elk and deer, that appeared (again purely subjective) to be more comfortable with my presence BECAUSE of the presence of my goats. It seems like in general, I can get closer to wildlife in the woods when the goats are present than when I am by myself.

BUT are these risks that cannot be mitigated? I think not. I believe that I can be an effective steward over my goats, and if I see a BHS herd at some distance, or even in my path, I can make a detour or adjust my route accordingly so as to ensure that there would be no chance for contact. 60 feet is extremely close, and if by happenstance, a ram came in too close for comfort, I could easily scare him off; ie yelling, throw a few rocks, fire a pistol, etc. Therefore, even if there is a biological possibility -although remote- that a goat can transmit disease, I as the human operator of my particular goats can mitigate that risk by reducing the chance of exposure or contact down to an acceptable level.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

WHAT??? Something (BHS) doesnt find goats MAGNIFICENT and worthy of a closer look??? pfft! Is that even possible?

[IdahoNancy]

I know these debates are a lot more work for a few members than others but I do appreciate them.

[vigilguy]

igoat, thank you very much for contributing to this discussion and to our cause. You obviously know a whole lot about these issues and the "lingo" of the Forest Service.

Please tell us a little about yourself. Where are you located? How many packgoats do you own? Do you have past experience with the Forest Service?

Charlie Jennings
www.bearriveroutfitters.com
Deweyville, Utah

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When it comes to the legal matter though, if you are hearing comments like the "one in a million chance" being too great, I hope you are informing Larry to bring that to NAPgA's attorney Mr. Irvine. Under NEPA governmental agencies aren't supposed to work on those kind of absolutes, and need to enact regulations that take into consideration not only the environmental impact but also the economical or social impacts as well. It should also be pointed out that there is probably a better than a 1 in a million chance that a BHS Ram on a foray would wander down onto private property and come into contact with a domestic sheep herd, and a far better that a million to one chance that a BHS would get hit by a car. But, neither of those instances can legally be mitigated by the forest plan because it would put an undo burden on the public at large, and the benefit to the BHS would be outweighed by other human concerns.

So, I hope everyone here is contributing to the legal fund so that we can afford to keep Mr. Irvine in this fight, because if the Shoshone disregards the Objections he just filed, then our next recourse is to fight the FS in open court for making their "arbitrary and capricious" regulations, and that will likely cost upwards of $100k in legal fees. (which we might be able to get back if we win and the judge finds that the error was egregious enough).

Excellent reply! NAPgA has discussed at length about the arbitrary and capricious nature of the claims of the Forest Service and the Game & Fish in regards to the domestic goats and their interaction with BHS.

Yes, our Attorney is "on top" of the current issues. Larry and myself communicate with him on a weekly basis and keep him informed as to what is going on throughout the western U.S. regarding closures to packgoats. Not only do we feel that Andy Irvine is very competent on these issues, BUT he is also passionate about our cause and has already donated a significant amount of his time "pro-bono".

The area of the Fitzpatrick Wilderness area in the Shoshone National Forest that was subjected to the temporary closure over a year ago is where the Whiskey Mountain Bighorn Sheep ranges. We had proposed a "corridor" through this area where we would stay on the trail and hike through this area quickly, NOT spending the night, and get to the other side and camp for the night. We thought it was a pretty logical plan, but was met with complete opposition.

It was mentioned about the chances of BHS interacting with cattle...I have a photo of a BHS sharing a water trough with a cow, I'll have to see if I can find it!

[igoat]

[quote='vigilguy' pid='2325' dateline='1397912932']
igoat, thank you very much for contributing to this discussion and to our cause. You obviously know a whole lot about these issues and the "lingo" of the Forest Service.

Thank you, but I dont profess to know any more about the lingo or subject matter than can be learned through reading Mr. Irvine's comments and objections that he submitted on behalf of NAPgA, or what can be learned about NEPA and other laws on the FS website or Wikipedia

I just worry that Mr. Irvine's goodwill towards providing Pro Bono work on NAPgA's behalf will only go so far, as he still has to earn a living, and if this issue goes to court, I cant imagine that he will be capable, (even if he wanted to) of performing those efforts for free. That is why I mearly am championing the call to all affected persons out there to continue to contribute to the legal fund, because like it or not, we will likely need to use it if we are going to have our legal and rational arguments heard in front of a neutral arbiter of justice.

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As I have been reading through the pertinent parts of the Blue Mountains Draft LMP on the FS website, I am reminded of a question that has been lingering in my mind. There is (apparently) some story or evidence relating to the Hells Canyon BHS dieoffs years ago, that connected a feral goat to the disease transfer. Sometimes when I read about it, it mentions the circumstance as being solidly backed by evidence, and other times it appears to have been purely circumstantial evidence that connected the goat to the die offs. Does anyone know the source of these stories, and the real truth of the matter?

I came across an article from my home state's Idaho Fish and Game, where it appears that Francis Cassirer, the department's lead expert on BHS may have been one of the lead persons in studying that particular incident, or at least she wrote something about it back in 1996. Has anyone ever talked to Francis in person to question what led the authorities to believe the dieoffs were attributed in that instance to the feral goat? I know that there are a number of IDFG biologists who themselves own packgoats, so certainly their position cannot be as extreme as we have experienced in WY, but in their own literature, I do still see the all-to-common general lumping of domestic sheep and goats into the same category of risk to BHS.

here is the article
https://collaboration.idfg.idaho.gov/Wil...20PR04.pdf

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One quote from the above quoted article; "There are currently no restrictions on or monitoring of pack-goat use in the project area; although, use of pack goats in areas used by bighorn sheep is of concern." Seems to imply that Ms. Cassirer at least then and possibly does now, subscribes to the belief that not only do domestic goats pose a threat to BHS, but also packgoats specifically. Suppose though, we were able to open lines of dialogue (if it has not already been done) with some of these leading scientists, including Ms. Cassirer, that the FS is relying on for their DEIS and LMPs, and convince them to concede that 1) the impact of domestic goats on BHS needs to be studied, compared, and separated from that of the impact and risk of domestic sheep. 2) that thereafter when they (the scientists and researchers in the field) refer to the issue, that they should cease to refer to the threat of 'domestic sheep and goats' as being one and the same, and in fact the threats of each category "sheep" and "goats" (being distinctly different in magnitude) should not even be mentioned in the same sentence. 3) and then separate the general risk associated with domestic goats specifically from the general risk of packgoats, and to thereafter cease to lump them into the same risk category. 4) that they should clarify their call for management or restrictions on packgoat use in BHS source habitats to not mean a complete ban, but rather a set of rules and procedures for packgoat owners to follow when in a risk area.

My opinion, having spoken with a few wildlife biologists, is that they are reasonable people who can see the wisdom of reasonable solutions rather than across-the-board bans. So, I suggest we begin a campaign to contact as many of the biologists who are most quoted on the subject and express to them our concerns, help them understand that we DONT want to be part of the problem, but want to be part of the solution, and merely ask for them to begin re-wording how they have hitherto been lumping essentially three completely separate and distinct risk categories into one, when they refer to the issue in their literature.

[igoat]

In case anyone has an hour to kill, here is an article that has is fairly comprehensive on the general subject we are discussing here.

http://www.wafwa.org/documents/wswg/Reco...gement.pdf

Note that the general recommendation to managing agencies is to NOT allow any packgoat use in BHS source habitats, and where such a prohibition is not YET in place, they are asking the agencies and affiliated non-profits to educate the public as to the risk. "Where legislation or regulations are not already in place, an outreach program to inform
potential users of the risks associated with that activity should be implemented to discourage use of domestic sheep or goats as pack animals."

We need to be RE-EDUCATING them that WE as a packgoating community are not the problem. We DO need to be managed, but MANAGED, and NOT BANNED. We are distinctly different than a rancher who has 300 meat goats spread over a hillside, we can and do control each and every goat we take into the woods. We acknowledge that we do not need to take our goats right into the heart of a BHS herd, but suggest that instead of banning us from a finite geographic area that may or may not actually have a BHS population therein at any one point in time, rather on a case-by-case basis we can keep our goats away from BHS populations we encounter. We would not be opposed (in fact I suggest that we embrace) to common-sense type rules; ie not using packgoats when hunting BHS. Requiring health certificates when we enter certain geographic zones. Requiring GPS collars in certain zones, Requiring lead tied goats in certain zones, etc.

[vigilguy]

As I have been reading through the pertinent parts of the Blue Mountains Draft LMP on the FS website, I am reminded of a question that has been lingering in my mind. There is (apparently) some story or evidence relating to the Hells Canyon BHS dieoffs years ago, that connected a feral goat to the disease transfer. Sometimes when I read about it, it mentions the circumstance as being solidly backed by evidence, and other times it appears to have been purely circumstantial evidence that connected the goat to the die offs. Does anyone know the source of these stories, and the real truth of the matter?

igoat, a couple of years ago I called Dr. Glen Weiser of the Cain Vet Center, and he sent me three scientific peer-reviewed papers authored by Dr. Rudolph concerning the hells Canyon die-off. They can be found if you do a google search on the Journal of Wildlife Diseases website. I will look a little later and reference them. In the three papers, Dr. Rudolph explains that the biovariant 1 and ToxA + organisms were limited to the three animals shot on 29 November 1995 and WERE NOT ISOLATED from ANY of the other Bighorn Sheep in Groups A and B. The BHS identified in Group A either had signs of respiratory disease or were dead, and were within a radius of 30 km from where the feral goat was shot. The Group B BHS consisted of 72 BHS located north of the Grande Ronde River and west of the Snake River.

So as I read it, and as Dr. Weiser explained to me, there is no evidence that the feral goat caused the catastrophic die-offs in Hells Canyon. The BHS possessed organisms of a completely different Biovariant type of organism than the feral goat.

But there are papers out there that accuse goats as being the culprit. This leads me to believe that the authors of these papers are banking on the fact that most folks won't immerse themselves in to the scientific papers, but will take their word for it.

---

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/10.7...8-39.4.897
Read page 901 first column 2nd paragraph.

http://www.bighornsheep.org/article_USAH...091109.pdf
Read page 5. Talks about management of brush goats and packgoats.

[igoat]

As I have been reading through the pertinent parts of the Blue Mountains Draft LMP on the FS website, I am reminded of a question that has been lingering in my mind. There is (apparently) some story or evidence relating to the Hells Canyon BHS dieoffs years ago, that connected a feral goat to the disease transfer. Sometimes when I read about it, it mentions the circumstance as being solidly backed by evidence, and other times it appears to have been purely circumstantial evidence that connected the goat to the die offs. Does anyone know the source of these stories, and the real truth of the matter?

igoat, a couple of years ago I called Dr. Glen Weiser of the Cain Vet Center, and he sent me three scientific peer-reviewed papers authored by Dr. Rudolph concerning the hells Canyon die-off. They can be found if you do a google search on the Journal of Wildlife Diseases website. I will look a little later and reference them. In the three papers, Dr. Rudolph explains that the biovariant 1 and ToxA + organisms were limited to the three animals shot on 29 November 1995 and WERE NOT ISOLATED from ANY of the other Bighorn Sheep in Groups A and B. The BHS identified in Group A either had signs of respiratory disease or were dead, and were within a radius of 30 km from where the feral goat was shot. The Group B BHS consisted of 72 BHS located north of the Grande Ronde River and west of the Snake River.

So as I read it, and as Dr. Weiser explained to me, there is no evidence that the feral goat caused the catastrophic die-offs in Hells Canyon. The BHS possessed organisms of a completely different Biovariant type of organism than the feral goat.

But there are papers out there that accuse goats as being the culprit. This leads me to believe that the authors of these papers are banking on the fact that most folks won't immerse themselves in to the scientific papers, but will take their word for it.

---

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/10.7...8-39.4.897
Read page 901 first column 2nd paragraph.

http://www.bighornsheep.org/article_USAH...091109.pdf
Read page 5. Talks about management of brush goats and packgoats.

Well, I hope that you let Mr. Irvine know, because the Blue Mountains DEIS specifically references the Hells Canyon incident and the feral goat. So when you make comments to the DEIS and Draft LMP, make sure you document the articles you presented so that they can see that the science they are basing their actions on is not resolved.

See below the quote from the Blue Mountains DEIS

"Bighorn Sheep Attraction and Disease Transmission – Bighorn sheep are attracted to domestic sheep and goats (Onderka et al. 1988, Schommer and Woolever 2001), and, although the mechanisms of respiratory disease in bighorn sheep are not well understood, the evidence that
contact between domestic sheep and bighorn sheep leads to respiratory disease and die-offs in bighorn sheep is overwhelming (Clifford et al. 2009, Foreyt et al. 1994, Silflow et al. 1993). More than 327 bighorn sheep in a 30 square mile area in Hells Canyon died when exposed to
Pasteurella multocida and Mannheimia haemolytica that was most likely carried by a feral goat (Cassirer et al. 1998, Onderka et al. 1988, Schommer and Woolever 2001). Both P. multocida and M. haemolytica were isolated from this feral goat and a bighorn sheep found in close proximity to where the Hells Canyon (1995 and 1996) bighorn sheep pneumonia epizootic began (Cassirer et al. 1998, Dassanayake et al. 2008, Weiser et al. 2003). Several authors (Dassanayake et al. 2008,
Silflow et al. 1993, Srikumaran et al. 2008, Weiser et al. 2003) have demonstrated that bighorn sheep are highly susceptible to P. multocida and M. haemolytica strains found in domestic sheep and goats.
As a result of die-offs and suppressed reproduction during the last century, the genetic diversity in bighorn sheep herds has been lost (Schommer and Woolever 2001). At the present time there are
no vaccines to protect bighorn sheep from developing pneumonia (Clifford et al. 2009, Schommer and Woolever 2001, Srikumaran et al. 2007, Weiser et al. 2003). The only way to prevent a pneumonia outbreak in bighorn sheep herds is to keep bighorn sheep separated spatially from domestic sheep and goats (Clifford et al. 2009, Dassanayake et al. 2008, Onderka et al. 1988, Schommer and Woolever 2001)." Blue Mountains DEIS Volume 2, pg. 236

---

As I have been reading through the pertinent parts of the Blue Mountains Draft LMP on the FS website, I am reminded of a question that has been lingering in my mind. There is (apparently) some story or evidence relating to the Hells Canyon BHS dieoffs years ago, that connected a feral goat to the disease transfer. Sometimes when I read about it, it mentions the circumstance as being solidly backed by evidence, and other times it appears to have been purely circumstantial evidence that connected the goat to the die offs. Does anyone know the source of these stories, and the real truth of the matter?

igoat, a couple of years ago I called Dr. Glen Weiser of the Cain Vet Center, and he sent me three scientific peer-reviewed papers authored by Dr. Rudolph concerning the hells Canyon die-off. They can be found if you do a google search on the Journal of Wildlife Diseases website. I will look a little later and reference them. In the three papers, Dr. Rudolph explains that the biovariant 1 and ToxA + organisms were limited to the three animals shot on 29 November 1995 and WERE NOT ISOLATED from ANY of the other Bighorn Sheep in Groups A and B. The BHS identified in Group A either had signs of respiratory disease or were dead, and were within a radius of 30 km from where the feral goat was shot. The Group B BHS consisted of 72 BHS located north of the Grande Ronde River and west of the Snake River.

So as I read it, and as Dr. Weiser explained to me, there is no evidence that the feral goat caused the catastrophic die-offs in Hells Canyon. The BHS possessed organisms of a completely different Biovariant type of organism than the feral goat.

But there are papers out there that accuse goats as being the culprit. This leads me to believe that the authors of these papers are banking on the fact that most folks won't immerse themselves in to the scientific papers, but will take their word for it.

---

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/10.7...8-39.4.897
Read page 901 first column 2nd paragraph.

http://www.bighornsheep.org/article_USAH...091109.pdf
Read page 5. Talks about management of brush goats and packgoats.

Well, I hope that you let Mr. Irvine know, because the Blue Mountains DEIS specifically references the Hells Canyon incident and the feral goat. So when you make comments to the DEIS and Draft LMP, make sure you document the articles you presented so that they can see that the science they are basing their actions on is not resolved.

See below the quote from the Blue Mountains DEIS

"Bighorn Sheep Attraction and Disease Transmission – Bighorn sheep are attracted to domestic sheep and goats (Onderka et al. 1988, Schommer and Woolever 2001), and, although the mechanisms of respiratory disease in bighorn sheep are not well understood, the evidence that
contact between domestic sheep and bighorn sheep leads to respiratory disease and die-offs in bighorn sheep is overwhelming (Clifford et al. 2009, Foreyt et al. 1994, Silflow et al. 1993). More than 327 bighorn sheep in a 30 square mile area in Hells Canyon died when exposed to
Pasteurella multocida and Mannheimia haemolytica that was most likely carried by a feral goat (Cassirer et al. 1998, Onderka et al. 1988, Schommer and Woolever 2001). Both P. multocida and M. haemolytica were isolated from this feral goat and a bighorn sheep found in close proximity to where the Hells Canyon (1995 and 1996) bighorn sheep pneumonia epizootic began (Cassirer et al. 1998, Dassanayake et al. 2008, Weiser et al. 2003). Several authors (Dassanayake et al. 2008,
Silflow et al. 1993, Srikumaran et al. 2008, Weiser et al. 2003) have demonstrated that bighorn sheep are highly susceptible to P. multocida and M. haemolytica strains found in domestic sheep and goats.
As a result of die-offs and suppressed reproduction during the last century, the genetic diversity in bighorn sheep herds has been lost (Schommer and Woolever 2001). At the present time there are
no vaccines to protect bighorn sheep from developing pneumonia (Clifford et al. 2009, Schommer and Woolever 2001, Srikumaran et al. 2007, Weiser et al. 2003). The only way to prevent a pneumonia outbreak in bighorn sheep herds is to keep bighorn sheep separated spatially from domestic sheep and goats (Clifford et al. 2009, Dassanayake et al. 2008, Onderka et al. 1988, Schommer and Woolever 2001)." Blue Mountains DEIS Volume 2, pg. 236

Also, I think that the pertinent part of those articles you cited is such could be included here, so that other readers can benefit;

"Although we know of no other information regarding transfer of potentially lethal Pasteurella spp. between domestic goats and free ranging bighorn sheep, we believe that goats can serve as a reservoir. Thus, interactions between the two species should be avoided to prevent Pasteurella transmission that could negatively impact the health of bighorn sheep populations. Pack goats have gained popularity for use on public and private lands. We recommend that individuals with pack goats have total control of their animals when in or near bighorn sheep habitat, both while on the trail and at the campsite. Likewise, we recommend that any bighorn sheep should be driven away from goats to prevent nose-to-nose contact and that any bighorn sheep that does come into direct contact should be removed from the herd to prevent potential transmission of disease causing organisms to other bighorn sheep." Pg 901, JOURNAL OF WILDLIFE DISEASES, VOL. 39, NO. 4, OCTOBER 2003

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I do appreciate that the author did not suggest that packgoats should be banned from the forest, but rather offered mitigating options that would reduce the risk of contact.

[vigilguy]

"Well, I hope that you let Mr. Irvine know, because the Blue Mountains DEIS specifically references the Hells Canyon incident and the feral goat. So when you make comments to the DEIS and Draft LMP, make sure you document the articles you presented so that they can see that the science they are basing their actions on is not resolved. "

I want to assure ALL of you that Mr. Irvine is VERY well aware of what is written in the Blue Mountain DEIS and is currently putting together a response. Not only is he busy working on this himself, but he is also utilizing the efforts of Mr. Jacob Thomas, former Board member if NAPgA, and now a Law student. The reason for using Mr. Thomas is so that NAPgA can stretch the funds that we have, the dollars that YOU donated.

I will also tell all of you this, Larry Robinson has done a magnificent job of managing the NAPgA funds for our cause of keeping the National Forests open. As the old-timers used to say,"he could squeeze the [poo] out of a buffalo nickel!" Larry and I have worked almost daily on this closure stuff, both sacrificing much of our personal time in order to keep the Forests open and to bring public awareness about the distortion of the facts concerning domestic goats.

The biologists that implicate that the feral goat caused catastrophic die-offs in the Hells Canyon area ought to be ashamed of themselves. They know the science, being biologists. Yet they distort the facts.