My new Pack Goat Protectors...(long & picture heavy)

[TOU]

Hey All,

Just thought I would share a few thoughts. As some of you know, since I got my pack goats a few months ago I have been getting more and more concerned about predators (both wild & domestic) as the property I have (16 acres) is right on the edge of a 10,000' mountain. Actually there is only one house between my goat property & the rest of the mountain; its about 4 blocks (1/2 mile) from my actual physical home. Even more so as the winter is getting colder and we have already had over 3' of snow fall at my house this year. So of course, things like coyotes and neighboring dogs are always concerning but in years past even Big Cats have hassled the previous resident horses. No one has seen one down this low in a lot of years but it is always a concern as they seem to be getting more plentiful of late. This all is especially concerning in the spring when I get my 4 new Ober kids. BTW none of my goats have horns.

For the winter, the two 2.5 year olds are in corrals that I have fenced VERY tight & VERY low with 4"x4" woven field fencing. However, the steel paneled gates were not wrapped. I had intended to likely add a hot wire on top & bottom as well as plug any gaps and wrap all the gates before I got the kids but just put it off since winter had hit. As I look back on it, the goats couldn't get out but I imagine most predators could get in the gates. (Reality is there is basically no cost effective way to stop a Big Cat period, with fencing measures.) At first I was thinking the two full size goats, my and my accompanying Springer's regular presence would likely deter most coyotes. I have also probably had a false sense of security though, due to having 7-10 deer feeding & bedding down in the fields nearly every night. I was thinking that it couldn't be too bad if they were there...but then again, they can run and are not captive.

Anyway, as some of you also know I haven't felt like I could get a LGD (Especially the more aggressive Anatolian that I originally wanted.) as I don't actually own the property and the 70+ year old lady owner lives on site. She has friends and relatives who visit and I am sure visit my animals so hence a very protective and aggressive to human canine was just more liability than I thought I could take. I just felt like I couldn't risk the people, hence the dogs...and consequently the use of the property with its, pasture, water, electricity, corrals, barns, storage and stalls if something bad happened because of my LGD. Then the property owner lost three ducks from her yard which has a pond (now Frozen), dead/mauled but not eaten. This could have been anything but still concerning & she was really concerned about my goats and the new kids in the spring. So in discussing it further with her, she welcomed a LGD or Guard Llama. Then there is the fact that several around this forum and the "other" forum that have lost full size goats to coyotes lately...more concerning. Several have also lost some kids...almost all to coyotes. Hence I started to realize that I may have been lucky so far but it was probably an eventuality that something ill could happen, especially with the kids and especially when I put them all out in the pasture next spring.

So after much reading & researching here and elsewhere, I was starting to lean towards a Guard Llama. Nice concept but one more hassle to me for an animal I didn't really want and it seems that their "guarding" abilities are a bit hit and miss. In the end, the relity is there is no way they would be as effective guard as a true LGD. After really weighing this out, in the end I decided that a Guard Llama probably would not work for me and decide to pass. If for no other reason I have a prized and very precious to me purebred hunting stock English Springer Spaniel that accompanies me to feed the goats 50% of the time as well as on all hikes and campouts...she also hunts for me.



Anyway, I just feel that I can't take a chance on a rogue Llama that can't work out a relationship with my dog the way the goats have with her.

I went back to looking at and researching LGS's. both here and on the Net. While some are perfect for guarding and are even known to chase down and kill coyotes, like Anatolians, there maybe better options for my unique situation. Anatolians seem to have more of a reputation of more extreme hostility with non-introduced humans. Please note I love Anatolians and mean no disrespect to them as I would like to have one someday. It seems though that the Great Pyrenees & Komondors LGD's, while great protectors and defenders, tend to be a bit more conservative in their approach; I think that this suits me and my situation a little better. The Komondor seems very close to a GP in regards to attributes and demeanor.

Basic attributes (I'm sure there are more):

Komondor: fearless, affectionate, gentle, loyal, protective, independent, calm, steady
Great Pyrenees: fearless, affectionate, gentle, loyal, protective, independent, patient, confident, strong willed

Like most LGD's, while they may be wary of people invading their territory, they are very in tune with the stress level of their charges and measure their responses accordingly. This especially true when it comes to two legged creatures that they deem a true threat. (many times knocking them down and holding until the master comes.) From what I understand, most times they have escalating responses depending on the perceived threat or stress of their charges. I definitely don't really need them chasing down and killing anything that is not physically harming or trying to harm my goats I just need the to keep their territory clear of them. I also need them to watch over and protect on the rare occasion. IMHO, I'm guessing that 99% of the time that LGD are essentially deterrents more than defenders and just having their physical presence wins the battles 99.5% of the time when it comes to wild predators and lone domestic dogs. There is no way I believe that a coyote will be sticking his head in my corrals if I had two 100-125+ lb LGD dogs. I would think that even a Big Cat would think twice about that scenario.

Anyway, last Thursday, instead of a Guard Llama, I was lucky enough to find two 4-5 months old 3/4 Great Pyrenees 1/4 Komondor puppies (brothers) for a VERY fair deal. (It looks like they ended up with the Komondor coat.) The largest, Sampson, likely weighs nearly 70 lbs already & while his brother Goliath (55-60 lbs) is smaller...smaller is very relative. Sampson was the largest of the litter while the Goliath was the runt...interestingly he is the more dominant though. They are completely bonded to each other and in sync with each other which I would think would make them great working companions as LGD's. It is also the reason I was given such a sweet deal on the two. The former owner mainly wanted to see them stay as working dogs and to stay together as they are moving back to the city & can't keep them. (Not many city folks looking for TWO 100+ lb LGD's. )

The first night, I put them right in the corrals with the goats and they were fine with it even if the goats were giving them a leery eye. That said, after three nights, my goats still won't let them sleep with them...they seem content to curl up in a patch of snow or some straw in my 3 sided shed/barn. (The curled up in a patch of snow fast asleep while I worked on the fence, perfectly content and snoring. LOL. )

Unfortunately though, my Alpine, Chester, seems to be pushing them around a bit for no reason; they aren't as fast as Tess who likes to play chicken with the goats. I have stayed out of it and let them mainly work it out as I don't think it will change their desire to guard the goats though, especially the 4 kids I have coming late next spring. They are very much gentle giants and very mellow and lovable so far...maybe a bit too much so in some ways. I think they will come in to their own with the goats when they age and mature a bit. Anyway, I really think they are going to work out great & they seem to be already bonding to my Tess & the goats...even if the Goats aren't bonding as strong to them yet. I think having my new kids grow up with them will help. Right now though, they want to be with me more than the goats though, which is a tad concerning. While I like that they are fairly friendly with people though, I do hope they eventually bond more to the goats than me and my children. Its still very early and I have them locked down with the goats and will only visit them twice a day for the next few weeks to feed & water them. Hopefully being in the corrals together all winter, they will be extremely bonded to the goats by spring. I will then finish "goat fencing" the pasture for them to patrol at night...this should also keep them in where they are supposed to be until they come into there full guarding capabities at 2-3 yo.

One thing that I have had to do is really upgrade my fencing even more in order to make sure they stay put until they are fully bonded to the goats...and not wander to find me any more. (more on that momentarily.) The gates were the hardest part, but I think I have it all zipped up now. I figure if my smaller, wily and wiry Springer can't get out, neither will they and nor will coyote be able to get in anymore. That isn't the bad part though; the bad part is that on the second night, they came looking for me maybe 30 minutes after I fed & left them at 5:00 pm. My daughter took a friend to see them & the goats while we went Christmas shopping and found that they were gone! (6:15 pm) We all came back to look for the two "little" guys but had no luck as it was after dark...they had no I.D. tags yet. So we got some flashlights and started tracking their BIG paws in the fairly fresh snow. Three doors down, I saw the prints going to a porch of a home. I knocked on the door to ask if they had seen them? They had and said that he had help load them in a police car an hour and a half ago. I said, "DANG!"

The owner said well, "They were running all over the place bugging everyone."

Riiiiight. There is no way they even hardly had time to "bug" anyone...keep in mind it was only 3 doors down and likely with in 30-45 minutes after I left.

So off I went down to the local police station where they keep their animal control shelter on the premises...no luck, no one was there. (It was a Friday night.) I then called dispatch and they confirmed that they had them & the officer picked them up at 6:10 pm and they were locked in the shelter. I apologized and noted I had only had them for about 36 hours. They told me that the only officer on duty (the one that had picked them up.) was busy helping traffic with a water main line break. (icy). They said that he would call me ASAP and see what we could do.

An hour later, sitting in front of City Hall, he called and apologized for the delay. Long story shorter, he had other calls and met with me 2 hours later & let me have them on the promise that I would register them on Monday. I then noticed that their pretty white coats had streaks of yellow and they had a pungent smell to them. The officer told me that the lady that had called them in had sprayed them with Mace! Grrrrrrr! They didn't have time to "bug" anyone that much, the officer & I were NOT impressed as he is a huge dog lover. They are big but are super lovable & very gentle...they are obvious big clumsy puppies but there is no way they were aggressive or "bugging" anyone. The previous owner taught them not to even jump up on people and they almost never do...they are gentle giants that were just trying to find me. I would have actually loved to have charged that lady with animal cruelty...because that's just what it was. It was just plain mean! But...my dogs had gotten out and the people would have just said that they felt threatened and I would likely have gotten fined or worse. I just decided to let it go and go home and lock down my fencing completely so it never happened again. I spent all Saturday, with it snowing, locking it down completely...nothing is getting in, and nothing is getting out. I figure 6 months from now, they would be so bonded to my animals that they would likely never wander again.

Anyway, I feel really blessed to have them and get them back not too much worse for wear. As far as predators are concerned, my mind is completely at ease now & feel I have made the right decision. They have already worked their way in to my families hearts; we just need to be careful to not love on them too much so that they will strongly bond to our goats. If nothing else, they made me get around to finishing my fencing and it is ready for the kids in the spring. My only real concerns now are if they stay too bonded to people...and if that Komondor coat that they seem to have, will get to unwieldy.
Hope you enjoy something in my rambling.


TOU

Here are some pics of them...sorry so dark, it was late:






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Here are some with my boys...keep in mind these pups are only 4-5 months old.

[Nanno]

Good find! I hope these guys work out awesome for you! Sounds like they already are. I'm sorry your dogs got maced, but it may be a good thing in the long run. If someone had taken them in, fed them, and fussed over them, they might be more inclined to keep leaving. As it is, they probably got scared out of their wits and your pasture may feel safer to them now than the outside world. I told my neighbor that if my dog ever goes visiting to please scare the pants off her and send her packing straight back home. I'm sure we'll take Daisy with us whenever we take all the goats for a walk at once, but if any goats are ever at home, that is where she will be expected to stay. I won't be taking her with me when I ride horseback either. She is a goat guardian, not a people companion.

Right now Daisy is doing like your dogs and is a lot more excited about me than about her new charges, but she is already starting to shift focus a bit. Daisy tried to dig under the gate for half a minute last night when I left the pen, but when I came this morning it was clear she had not continued to dig. I think she just had a brief panic attack about being left alone with Cuzco now that he's becoming aggressive toward her. This morning I put down some big rocks on the inside of the gate (mine swings out) to discourage any further digging. As she doesn't appear very determined, I think this will do the trick.

Good luck with your new dogs! I hope they keep your critters safe and that your goats don't mess with them too much.

[TOU]

Good find! I hope these guys work out awesome for you! Sounds like they already are.

Thx so much Nanno...they are already working their way in to our hearts.

I'm sorry your dogs got maced, but it may be a good thing in the long run. If someone had taken them in, fed them, and fussed over them, they might be more inclined to keep leaving. As it is, they probably got scared out of their wits and your pasture may feel safer to them now than the outside world.

Yeah...pretty irritating and way over reaction but it is over and they are fine as it was mainly on their bodies...it is all but gone now. In a few months, I think it will be a non-issue once bonded with my goat boys.

I'm sure we'll take Daisy with us whenever we take all the goats for a walk at once, but if any goats are ever at home, that is where she will be expected to stay.

I will continue to hike & pack with my Springer Tess because THAT is who she is. She is well bonded to them and she is much easier to control on the trail but will still serve as a warning bell. I thought about taking them out with us & socializing them more but I have decided against it as it is NOT who they are nor is it really who I want them to be...NEED them to be. (I also can't imagine trying to handle two +125# LGD's, a wired Springer, and several pack goats should chaos erupt on the trail.) I also don't want to expand their territory more than our pastures as it may send mixed messages to them. So when I have walked our 16 acres of pasture, I have taken them but won't if it is out side of that.

My only concern is when I take all the goats out, and they are bonded to them, that they get upset. Others have told me that they get miserable and howl until their charges return. May just have to leave a goat or two in reserve to keep them happy. Right now it is not a problem yet.

I won't be taking her with me when I ride horseback either. She is a goat guardian, not a people companion.

Exactly.

Right now Daisy is doing like your dogs and is a lot more excited about me than about her new charges, but she is already starting to shift focus a bit.

Yeah, I think it will settle out and taking her out with out the goats anymore than you have to these first few weeks will just delay the bonding to them.

I think she just had a brief panic attack about being left alone with Cuzco now that he's becoming aggressive toward her.

I'm sure that they will work it out their relationship & she will likely make better friends with some than others. Key is if she will defend them all. Besides, like I mentioned, I think that their presence is a serious deterrent to predators in and by itself.

This morning I put down some big rocks on the inside of the gate (mine swings out) to discourage any further digging. As she doesn't appear very determined, I think this will do the trick.

LOL...my gates swing both ways but I put large railroad tie type timbers under them and butted up against the lowest rails. I think that should shut those spaces down for them or predators digging or moving them...but now my gates only open one way.

Good luck with your new dogs! I hope they keep your critters safe and that your goats don't mess with them too much.

Same goes for you, sorry for your loss. Hang in there! Thx for your input.

TOU

[Nanno]

My only concern is when I take all the goats out, and they are bonded to them, that they get upset. Others have told me that they get miserable and howl until their charges return. May just have to leave a goat or two in reserve to keep them happy.

^THIS!

The first morning, I left Daisy in the pen while I fed the goats. I've always fed the goats down by my house since that's where I keep the grain, and it's easier to bring the goats to the food than to bring the food to the goats, if you know what I mean.

The goats wouldn't eat as long as the dog was looking at them, so I figured I'd leave her locked in the pen until everyone finished breakfast. Bad idea! Daisy went crazy! She even dared to try the electric fence again, even though she had touched it the day before (with very dramatic results). She barked and howled the whole time until I brought the goats back.

Since then I've let everyone out at the same time and the goats have to deal with having a dog watch them eat. Once out of the pen, Daisy goes into the fields and around the house to check things out, but she doesn't lose track of the goats for more than a minute or two before she's back to check on them. I'm concerned about letting her come with us when we walk goats because, like you, I don't want her thinking that her territory is bigger than our 40 acres. But at the same time, there's no way I can leave her back at the goat pen by herself. I wonder if we'll start taking only two goats walking at a time and leave two for Daisy to watch over. She'd be a wreck if we took them all! I need a bigger herd.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Sounding like she knows her stuff. Have no idea about bring her on to the trail other then she may hurt herself or something else if you dont. Maybe if you leave 1 got behind? Might try that. Then buy the dog a cheap pygmy or something... which would be terribly ironic

[Nanno]

Phil would love a colorful Nigerian Dwarf, so maybe that would be the answer to leaving the dog at home. But right now she gets very upset even when I take just one goat out of the pen. I usually bring Lilly down in the evenings for some extra feed. She has a very high metabolism and doesn't keep weight like the other goats, so she gets an extra meal (although lately I've had a hard time getting her to eat anything!). Yesterday I heard Daisy yelping and barking as soon as Lilly disappeared, and pretty soon the dog came bounding into the yard. She had pushed aside the big rocks, pushed the gate as far out as it would go while still latched, and had dug out underneath it. I gave her a pretty good tongue-lashing and marched her straight back to the pen. This time I also put rocks on the outside of the gate so she couldn't push against it, and if she keeps trying I'm going to install a hot wire 5 inches above the ground on the inside. That'll stop her!

But I noticed one thing: Daisy never digs or whines by the gate if all the goats are in the pen. I'm hoping her digging behavior stops once she realizes that the goats are ok when they're with Phil or I. I have to remind myself that she's brand new here, she has no reason to trust me and Phil, and she doesn't know anything about our routine.

On the plus side, Daisy is definitely getting more comfortable around our goats and the goats are finally starting to accept her. Cuzco likes to show her who's boss, but he didn't terrorize her today, and she wasn't nearly as frightened of his horn-waving and posturing as she was before. Daisy is also eating better too. The goats weren't the only ones off their feed this past week!

[ryorkies]

My cousin tried to give me a 8 month old Pyrenees female. I passed because I only have 1 acre and 3 goats. And the goat pen is only about a 1/4 of a acre. I wanted one of these dogs. Just did not feel it was enough space for the dog. Radena (s.oregon)

[Nanno]

How are your dogs working out, TOU? Also, how are your new goats working out?

[TOU]

How are your dogs working out, TOU? Also, how are your new goats working out?

Hey Nanno & All,

Started a new job last month & haven't found much time to post. Thought I'd post a link of a short video I took a couple of days ago of my 6.5 month old LGD's and my full grown 18 month old Springer. They were irritating & double teaming her and she was getting pretty annoyed with them. No harm but she let them know who was in charge but also went home totally slimed by these two big fur balls. See what you think.

My dogs...

BTW, they are 27" at the shoulder (not including fur which makes them seem even taller. When I weighed them at the vet the week after my last post, they were 65 & 70 pounds. I am pretty sure they have put on another 10-15 since then which is putting them in the 80-85 lb range I suspect. I have no doubt that they will likely be in the 110-125 range when fully grown & who knows how tall?! Amazing that they are only a confirmed 6.5 months old!

On my goats, all is good; all get along fine with the dogs. (4 almost 5yr old Alpine/Saanens & 3 nearly 3 yr old Saanen/Alpine/Boers)Buddy my original Lamancha, seems to miss Chester a bit in the sense that he isn't nearly as tight with any of the rest of the newly added herd members as he was to Chester...but they had been raised together since kids. In all fairness, the four 4.5 yr olds have been raised together since kids and so had the three 2.5 yr olds. Seems to be a tough dynamic to break into. Don't get me wrong he is happy and content but prefers to sleep with the dogs as much as anyone since Chester passed away. It has definitely been interesting introducing SEVEN new goats to one and watching the dynamics change on a daily basis. However, it took a while of bribing and working with some more than others to get them to come around to being "my goats". I have taken them on several small hikes including the entire herd of 8 through the neighborhood & down to my house recently. All now come running to my voice or whistle even when on a trail. That was handy when another hiker had two big dogs...they just gathered around me off the trail until they passed.

My biggest goat appears to be between 38"-39" (Big Gus) and I suspect is well over 220 lbs. I have 3 others that aren't far behind in height including my soon to be 3 year old Lamancha Buddy. The latter isn't early as big as Gus yet but has really come into his own and is nearly 37" IIRC. (3 more I suspect are over 200 lbs but need to confirm.) I also suspect he will be 200+ eventually and may still gain some more height. (Vet confirmed yesterday, via X-ray, that his growth plates are not closed yet. Anyway, still having fun, looking forward to spring and getting them out even more. (And finishing the fencing too. )

Cheers,

TOU

P.S. No more escapees either.

[TOU]

Dogs have been doing great for the last four months. Goats have been doing great with them for the past 4 months as well. I wanted to update you all a bit as well as give a word of warning with these kinds of BIG dogs.

My second biggest LGD is Goliath who at 8 months was a bit over 80 lbs. (Sampson, the bigger of the two, I am guessing is a bit over 90lbs now and is nearly 30" at the shoulder.) When you have dogs this big they eat lots, are amazingly strong & have BIG MOUTHS and LARGE accommodating throats. These dogs will try to eat anything so you need to be careful about that as it is sometimes easier for them to just swallow things instead of spitting them out. They are BIG...but they are still puppies. I.E. "Puppy-Stupid" Because they are big they can swallow things that maybe they shouldn't. BE VERY CAREFUL WAHAT YOU FEED THEM AND ALLOW THE TO CHEW ON!

I am personally very careful with what I allow my dogs to chew on & play with and what I feed them. Unfortunately I do not own my land where my animals are and the land owner has friends and family that like to visit my animals when I am not around...I can't say much because I don't really pay much for such amazing facilities.

For the most part I am fine with as it helps socialize my goats and dogs. Sadly visitors have been throwing in stuffed animals for my dogs to chew on when I'm not around...NOT COOL! So far it had not been an issue as I pull them, their stuffing and body parts out ASAP as I do my chores twice a day. A couple of weeks ago some one visited the and threw a stuffed animal in for the dogs to chew on...I was away for 4 days on a business trip. My boys who were taking care of them didn't think much about it & sadly left the toy there and I came back and noticed stuffing all over but did not see any toys. Since I didn't see any toys it didn't really register any warning.

Then, one of my dogs would not eat anything and was laying around much more than normal for a couple of days. They usually quickly wolf their 6-8 cups of food that is fed to them...he wouldn't. Not too big of a deal so long as he was drinking as dogs have their days I figured. Then I knew we were trouble on the second day when on a walk he laid down & wouldn't get up for quite a while...AND he wouldn't drink. I got him to the vet ASAP and after exam, palpation & X-ray confirmation we found he had something large and sold in his intestines. $1500 worth of care later including unsuccessful IV therapy followed by a serious surgery, he lost much of his intestines along with a stuck stuffed animal head...he has more care to follow over the next little while. He lost enough of his intestines that he will have to be put down if it were to happen again as he can't loose anymore.

Long story short, I am very sadly down a LGD. fortunately the clinic that did the care and who he had originally been adopted through was in touch with the original shelter. Knowing that he could likely never work the farm again as we could never guarantee what he might eat or not eat there, the shelter was kind enough to agree to pick up part of the surgery cost & after care (Not the other care, IV therapy or X-rays). They also noted that they had several good potential homes to re-home him as the farm is no longer a good place for him.

Fortunately Goliath is still alive and well and will be going to a good home but I am so frustrated as he was probably the better LGD of the two. My kids were pretty attached & we needed him s we had also invested much time, money & efforts in to him. It SOOOO didn't have to happen an was totally preventable. While it is cute to watch dogs play with toys, people should ask first &/or mind their own business. I have spoken to the owner who feels awful but also asked where I thought the stuffed animal could have come from. We both know where...hopefully it won't happen again as this is getting expensive for my family both in emotion and money. I don't think it will & I'll be posting signs on the fences & corrals etc.

Still trying to decide if I will replace him with a new LGD pup so that I still have a team to work together in the fields or just stay with the one.

Anyway, they may be puppies but that along with a big mouth & the wrong items can be deadly to these gentle giants.