The ultimate pack goat.......in theory

[nebs]

As some of you know I am new to pack goats and am excited to get my first buckling from Dave at Trinity Pack Goats. Many of you know Curt King from the old forum. Curt lent my the book "The Pack Goat" by John Mioncyynski. What a great read. In the book John discusses how all domesticated goats come from wild ibex. John also shares some of his thoughts on how the different species of wild goats (mostly different ibex species) still have characteristics in our modern breeds. I was fascinated with how wild goats have hind hocks that point together, allowing them more "spring" in their step for climbing. All this got my brain churning

I started researching the different species of wild ibex, and learned although Nubian Ibex (nothing like dairy Nubians) were the most common amongst breeders here in the US. Most breeders use them on hunting ranches, but there are a few that just enjoy having them. Nubian ibex tend to be more high strung. The Alpine Ibex is the largest of the different species, is the most docile in captivity, and although have large horns they are more of a half moon shape and not as long. I will be keeping a horned herd, but those monster horns that keep curling would be too cumbersome on the trail I would think. So I wanted to cross an Alpine Ibex with a domesticated doe like an Alpine or Oberhasli.

I also found this cool study in Europe where a small band of escaped dairy does formed a herd with an Alpine ibex buck in the Alps. They found 1st and 2nd generations of hybrids that were even bigger than the wild ibexs. They ended up killing all the hybrids as Alpines were endangered in that region, and the gene pool needed cleaning before transplanting more from Italy.
http://www.wildlifebiology.com/Downloads...ometti.pdf

I located two different breeders in different states who have Alpine ibex. One collects semen straws from his Alpine bucks and sells them for $100 a straw plus a shipping fee. Once I told him about my idea and I live in Washington state, he refused to sell to me because I live in a state with wild sheep populations. He thinks it should be illegal to have pack goats in states with wild sheep because we will pass diseases and kill off all the sheep. It is well known domesticated sheep are responsible for die offs of wild sheep, but I have never heard of a documented case of goats being responsible for it. It didn't matter, he wasn't having any of it.

It didn't matter, because I contacted our Fish and Game, and confirmed no ibex, chamois, tahr or hybrids are allowed in Washington without a special permits, fences, and a bunch of regulations. I'm out. However if any of you live in a state that allows them, and doesn't have wild sheep populations I would love to see this idea happen. Let me know what you think?

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Where the Alpines are pretty much a solid brown/gray color, the Nubians are more tan with the black and white leg markings. I've seen the same markings on several domesticated goats of different breeds. Kind of cool.

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Can you imagine packing in the mountains with this guy?!

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I have also noticed most of our domesticated goats lose the large nobs along the crest of the horns. Even the 2nd generation alpine hybrids in the study lost the nobs and developed more of a lined ridge like this persion ibex.

[Charlie Horse]

It really comes down to personality. A breeding program that included one of these species in the gene pool might be very interesting though. Getting some genetics from outside the dairy world could result in the ultimate pack goat. The catch would be that it'd have to have a domestic brain. Also with some work it could end up with a goat that nobody would know had alien genes in it and thus would render the anti-hybrid laws moot. We all know tons and tons of dogs out there have high percentage wolf in them, but good luck proving it. "Its a husky" the owners can say, and who's to prove otherwise.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Hey Nebs, I was going to ask you if you could contact whomever you asked about the special permit and see at what generation would you have to breed the ibex out before the animal would no longer be considered "special". It would seem a 3rd or 4th gen removed cross would be far enough removed.

[Nanno]

So, do goats and ibex have the same number or chromosomes so they can create reproducing offspring? These wouldn't be sterile hybrids would they? Hybrid is kind of a confusing term--I usually think of it as a cross between two separate species that cannot itself reproduce (like mules, zebroids, ligers, and geep) but I know people also use the term when they cross wolves or coyotes with domestic dog breeds. Those, of course, can reproduce and it makes me wonder if wild dogs should even be classified as a different species from domestic.

[nebs]

Yes they can reproduce. In the link I attached they documented up to two generations of hybrid offspring. From what I can tell this is because domesticated goats were developed from ibex and other wild goats, so this would be more like dogs crossed with wolves (domesticated crossing with wild form) rather then a mule coming from horse and donkey (crossing two separate species).

The Washington WAC code is 232-12-017. All it mentions is hybrid, but does not clarify how many generations. The people who would decide would be using this WAC, and it doesn't clarify. This creates a pretty big gray area, and the answer will probably always vary depending on who you ask. If someone could develope a 3rd or 4th generation in a different state, maybe it could be used for this project, but maybe not? I'll ask the person at F&W.

[Taffy]

When I see Ibex photos I'm always amazed at their ability to carry those huge horns. They are gorgeous animals.

[Saph]

After a long dry spell here in Idaho, it was nice to wake up to a bit of snow this morning!

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

lol that was so random Saph

[Saph]

lol that was so random Saph

Oops, meant to post a photo & new thread topic. Still getting used to this stuff! I will try again...

[nebs]

So I wonder how hard it would be to purchase semen straws of some large Kiko bucks like this one from lookout point ranch in Oregon? Their website says by three years old this buck was 300 lbs. from the look of this pic he looks pretty tall or that's the shortest GLD I've ever seen. I really like the alpines, and want my pack goats to be all or mostly alpine, but adding a little of this in the mix should produce some mighty pack goats.