Dogs on the trail

[TipsyToad]

I'm curious about what people do to protect their goats against dogs on the trail. I'm planning to use my goats for day hikes on some trails that are used by a variety of hikers and bikers, often with their dogs. I'm concerned about off-leash dogs attacking my goats. What sort of protective measures does everyone take?

[hihobaron]

TipsyToad
Hello
The first thing is determine the threat level.
Bear,wolves, loose dogs and their owners and arm for the most likely.
This is from me personally taking  into consideration my background with  LEO and firearms.
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I am on the East Coast not many bears and wolves around here in SC. People /Dogs YES.
I have been on the West Coast in NFS Lands were it was needed to carry a big bore rifle and Magnum pistol for Cats and bears. Well Hidden Pot Growers too.
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Moving  On:
Yes, I know about being armed.
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In 5 Expeditions around here as I refer to them.
I have had several run ins with people walking dogs, most were the dogs being afraid of the goat boys and the goat boys staying very close to the herd boss (me).
I have had 3 unfriendly dogs mess with me, 2 different incidents.
A lot of people like pepper spray,bear spray or Tazers.
Have some experience with all of the above, I don't like them in my current situation.
What I carry with permits and the skill to use are for "Repellent" situations.
Walther Model 84 .20 air soft pistol. WITH 20 ROUNDS.

It STINGS BAD close up. 350-400 fps on the Plastic BB.
Then there is either the  9MM compact auto in my belt pouch like shown in the give away panel here.
Or My Old 357 Mag Revolver I carry if I don't have the 9MM with me.
Read about my mistakes on the Truck Chashing Goat Page.
Last resort is your walking stick and a NOT Gentle , aim for the ribs. Hit Hard.
My walking stick/herding crook is 3/4 fiberglass with a metal point for traction (Think Spear)
Enough weight that with a full arm swing capable of breaking bones or Skewering a animal or person.
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Things to think about:
In my case I have a CWP so I can carry both live guns and replica Air Soft with no problems from LEO's
As well as very well trained to use both.
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What you need for defense of you and your trail goats depends on the environment of the trail.
Example:
One my Favorite Trails Chestnut Ridge Preserve.
I have run into the same person (2) times now walking his bird dogs. Well manned/trained dogs.
We have stopped and talked dogs on sit/stay he carries a 2 meter FM radio, a cell phone, and a suspicious bulge under his  field jacket. I figure he packs a gun.
Dogs have GPS tracking collars on.
No problems from my point of view.
He was surprised and wanted to know how come goats were that compatible with staying with their person.
So he got the whole Pack Goat Story.
Turned out he is a Competitive Bird Dog Trainer/ Breeder and Dove hunter. it's a Southern Thing Ya'll  
The last time we met I had a feeling that he might be thinking of getting a pack goat or two for hunting.
He did ask early on how goats respond to gun fire, told him mine had to get chased off my range and then stayed behind my firing line when I was shooting everything from 22 to 308WCF

Enough for now
Happy Trails
hihobaron Blizzard,Fuzzy,Pete,Sam and the Troops in SC

[Sanhestar]

Hello,

I agree with hihobaron that many dogs are afraid of the goats and will turn around as soon as the goats go into defence mode = turning their heads towards an attacker.

Nonetheless I find it crucial to train your goats to come to YOU as soon as they spot a dog and not run for next highest ground. You can do this at home with people you know and have dogs that are trained well. Teach this over and over.

Carry a stout walking stick and learn yourself how YOU have to behave (body language) to deter a dog. Work with a dog trainer if you don't know how.

Are your goats horned? I have found that most dog owners will respond when you call to them "to get their dog because your goats will gore it".

Best defence so far was to take with me one of our own herding dogs. They will rush ahead and block the strange dog from approaching.

[hihobaron]

Sanhester/Sabine
I agree with your recommendations.
My two main boy's do not really have horns they have scures but sill have the gather round instink  and it did not need to be trained in. Once I was adopted  as heard boss they come running if they have a threat on the trail.
MY two kids (Born in March) already have 5 inches of horn just perfect for goring.
As I found out my old dog (Lab) is not a good LGD.
Try with (2) 100 pound + goats around your legs using your walking stick or getting to my pistol.
When two aggressive Husky type dogs attacked on the trail.
But I do believe that having your goats come to you when trailing is good.
Your lucky in having the help a herding dog. I don't.
My dog experience is more to GS and Dobermen Training.
Happy Trails
hihobaron Blizzard,Fuzzy,Pete,Sam and the Troops in SC

[TipsyToad]

I'm planning to keep my goats on lead and attached to humans at all times on the trail. I'm in Canada, so carrying guns, especially in provincial parks and on public trails, is not allowed, I was thinking bear spray might be a good option, but I'm also wondering if leading with a guard animal like a llama or donkey might help? Has anyone tried this?

[hihobaron]

TipsyToad
RE: Trail Weapons.
I have a good friend up your way, In a prepper group from Canada.
He has the same problem even though he is a farmer and has rifle/shotgun permits.
Uses a crossbow to harvest game.
He is very envious of our gun rights down here, especially with my background in equine usage and firearms skills,
I have been working on him to get Pack Goats. He has a large extended family, were just Bug out Bags for everybody will not last for more than a 2-3 days in a SHTF situation
He is a "Mature" adult as I am too. With bad knees. I could not carry a 50 pound Backpack theses days very far.
(2) Pack goats can carry that much easy or a little more.
Even a nanny in milk can carry some weight and you get milk on the trail.
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Back to Topic:
Next best for Trail Defense.
Either a pair of solid walking sticks (Ski Poles) that are good for your height. NON-collapsible.
Steel point, good grip with a mushroom top hand stop. Learn  some stick fighting (Martial Arts) .
I use my own home made ones 5/8 inch x 60 inch fiber glass (Originally electric fence post.)
Added grips to them and a steel point on the bottom. Think "Spear" I can use it to mid body to move a goat around. give them a wack if needed and use as a fighting stick or spear if needed .
A real aggressive animal short of a bear will not like getting impaled on a solid stick of fiberglass.
Used to be called Shepherds Crocks or wolf spears.
Hope this helps.
hihobaron Blizzard,Fuzzy Pete ,Sam and the Troops in SC.

[hihobaron]

TipsyToad
RE: I don't like Lamas.
Donkeys Maybe but then why have Pack Goats?
Here Nether of the above are allowed into parks/etc.
That is why I got in to goats (pardon the pun) every place I go  City,State and Federal parks apply "Dog Leash" rules.
Under Direct control. ETC. I can deal with that. They don't bark either.
On the trail for walkabouts they are not packed but I am building a soft pack for day hikes.
It is amazing here were trails are used by many "City Folk" as dog walking paths the reaction of both people and dogs.
Dogs are usually off leash as are my boy's . So I can not bitch about that. Just prepare for the nasty ones.
I have the advantage here I can carry non-lethal and also lethal weapons. If you have read my post you know my preferences. If you ever get a chance to visit SC I can show you some fun with firearm's
Come down in your winter it is warm here.
.
Happy Trails
hihobaron Blizzard, Fuzzy, Pete,Sam and the Troops in South Carolina

[Sanhestar]

I don't see any value in taking a guardian animal (except a livestock guarding or herding dog) with you. The guarding occurs when the lama or the donkey live with your goats permanently. So you have to care for yet another animal with it's own, special needs. Neither donkey nor lama should be kept solitary without members of their own species around. Donkeys are known to attack sheep/goats or play so rough that they injure them.

And if you plan to keep your goats on leash - which is unneccessary - you will have to keep the lama/donkey on leash, too. It can become very tiresome to have your hands full with rope all the time and in a situation of a dog encounter outright dangerous for you and the animals (entangling, ripping out of your hands, etc.)

[hihobaron]

Sanhestar
All good points in your last post.
Try leading 5 well trained horse to a fresh pasture and turning them loose.
Have done it but also have had rope burns when one dose not cooperate.
Happy Trails
hihobaron and the Troops here in SC

[Sanhestar]

Sanhestar

Try leading 5 well trained horse to a fresh pasture and turning them loose.

I did it 20 years ago with 6 but I cheated and stringed three of them together so I only held four ropes.

At the moment I turn out four. And I rather walk twice (two each) than have the hassle with all at the same time. Especially as I have to walk along a road.

When I take out the goats we have to walk along the village road for about 2-3 minutes and I keep them on the lead ropes for approx. 5 more minutes. No fun. I'm always happy when we reach the part of the trail where I can turn them loose one after the other.