Question About Lead Training

[AcanthaRose]

I have a question about teaching goats to lead. I have 2 new packers, one about 11 weeks old and her mother, around a year and a half. I have been training both of them, not just the little one, thanks to encouragement and advise from you all and it is going great. However, I am having some trouble with leading. They do fine on their leads if there is another person with me who they know, and if we are far enough away from home. But if I try to take them somewhere by myself, especially if I try to walk them there from our barn, they become difficult to lead. They are more forceful about pulling to the side of the path to eat stuff, and they will follow me, but only at an absolute snail's pace. Eventually I want to be able to go places on my own with them, but how do I teach them that no matter how few people are leading them they still have to come at a reasonable pace? They both have halters and collars, and they do the same thing no matter which the leash is attached to.

[Nanno]

I'm glad you have halters. These will give you more leverage than collars and help keep the goats from pulling you around. They also won't choke themselves on halters. They are being rude to you at home because it's a familiar and comfortable place where they don't feel the need to pay attention to you. When you visit a strange place, you kind of automatically have their attention because YOU are the comfort object. At home they're like, "Pfft... whatever." You need to get their attention and respect.

Do you walk both your goats at once or do you lead one and someone else leads the other? I find it's generally easier to work with just one animal at a time. I would start by leading the mother and let the kid follow along at his own pace. You can work with him another time. Bring treats and a riding whip (if you don't have one, you can usually find them at your feed store or you can cut a willow branch about 30" long). Walk straight ahead and expect your goat to come along with you. If she pulls or balks, give two sharp tugs on the halter and say "Walk on!" If she comes willingly, praise her and give her a treat. If she continues to pull away, reach behind you with the riding whip and smack her on the hind legs. I carry both the treats and the whip on my left side, opposite from the goat on my right--the treats on the opposite side so they don't get raided, and the whip on the opposite side so I never never touch the goat with it accidentally. When you use a whip, make sure not to turn and face your goat. Keep facing straight ahead with the lead rope in your right hand just below the halter. Then reach behind your own legs with the whip and drive the goat forward. That way you're ready to keep walking straight ahead without having to twist this way and that, which confuses your goat. You want her to have a very clear signal with a very clear objective: walk forward! Once she walks forward, reward with a treat.

I had one goat that was balky like this as a yearling. It took only one or two lessons before I was able to leave the whip at home. After that, a halter tug was enough to get his attention and make him come along obediently. On the rare occasion when he forgot his manners, I would take the end of the leash and flick it behind me at his hindquarters. You are teaching your goat to give to pressure on the halter. It's helpful to teach them to tie by the halter as well. This will train them to give to pressure without you having to actively do anything. I always tie with a halter when I'm trimming feet, bathing, or grooming. They soon figure out on their own that it's not comfortable to lean on the halter and that the pressure will release when they move forward.

Make sure you are firm and clear in your commands and that you always demand a response. Don't ask your goat to do something and then give in and let her ignore you and do something else. Any time she succeeds in snatching food after you told her to come along, she won a victory and will be more insistent the next time. You have to pay close attention to when she's about to be naughty so you can correct her before she succeeds in disobedience. Once you have her attention and respect then you won't need to correct her so often. She'll learn to stay next to you until you release her. This is also a great opportunity to teach her "Whoa". Every time you stop, say "Whoa" and give a treat when she stands still. You'll be amazed how quickly she learns to start and stop on command.

Good luck!

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

If its an eating thing, maybe let them out to browse / eat some hay before you start your walk. Give em 30 min to eat and the try to walk em. Also, find a treat they love and bribe em to follow

[Sanhestar]

I second, what Dave is suggesting. If your goats do not have much variety in their paddock, they will stuff their faces in the first 20-30 minutes of a hike. At the moment this is especially difficult because the plant live is still very attractive. Let them eat for a while before you start. Also, keep in mind that the mother (and the kid, also) have higher demands due to lactation and growing so they will be especially hungry for good, nutritious plants.

Take them out when they have eaten enough. Allowing them to take a few bites along the road also helps.

Teach them to follow when you call them.

Take a look at the following videos I shot about two years ago. This is a mixed group of experienced and new packers. They all know the routine of following on moves from pasture to pasture with the large herd, so they know THE call "kommekommekomm" already. But the spring grass and leaves are too tasty so I have to wait them out a bit until they catch up again.

I've made it a practise to give the name and the call not until they start walking towards me again, so that they connect the call with the action of walking (and not eating) and with several repetitions this will pay off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-FJY6jICwY

The second videos shows them with another experienced packer but also along another trail and later in the day (hotter already) so you see some of them lagging much more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaQhyT2342Q

My little furry helper (dog) is very usefull but you can see that she isn't pushing them too hard.

It takes time to teach them and I found that the best time to get reliable training into them is during autumn and winter when the food isn't such a strong distraction. You can build on what you teach them during this time then in the next spring/summer.

[hihobaron]

Sanhestar
Hello
Watched your You Tube videos
GREAT
I like the section were you got good views of the different types of pack saddles you use.
You also have some very impressive horned goats, the ones with the big flat airplane wing type horns. Can they fly in a strong head wind? What breed are they? Like your dog, looks like a Shelty X  ?????
The Expeditions I have made so far with Pete and Sam I have always after unloading let them munch on weeds around the Trail Head for a while "Fill Their Belly" then moved out.
Sure they stop grab a bite on the trail but then catch up, very seldom (So FAR)as  I go out of site they come trotting up the trail to find me. About 500 M as you mentioned is max distance they get behind me. Another 1000 meters and they are in trail formation.
It should  prove "Interesting" when we add the young brats to the trail string what they do.
For right now they are inclined (Kids) to break off from the older boy's to find their own patch of brush.
I hope after the family jewels drop off (they were banded about a week ago) they will be more social.
Not that they are not "social' now but they have been showing their "Independence."
MY rules here are if you want to play "Catch me if You can Games" your dinner. I shoot very well. Tag your it situation.

The second trip things were greening up good I worried about the boy's being more interested in eating brush more than staying on the trail. They surprised me. Yes they did do some munching but kept up, but after a while stayed close, just grabbing a leaf or two then catching up. Can not ask for better trail manners.
Have explained to the goat boy's your pack goats, or dinner if you mess up.
Happy Trails
Thanks for the Video's
hihobaron Blizzard,Fuzzy,Pete,Sam and the the Troops in South Carolina

[Sanhestar]

Hello,

Oh, you loved Nox - the airplane goat. New, interesting name. We always called him the energizer bunny goat because he never got tired. Died in winter 2014/2015 and is deeply missed. He was a Toggenburger/Saanen cross. I tried to repeat the breed cross (with completely different parents - we bought Nox young and were always impressed by his will to work) and out of that came the other white, horned goat. Sadly, he didn't get the work drive, he is rather lazy.

The others are Boer/Saanen and Toggenburger/Oberhasli crosses.

The dog is an English Shepherd (from Canada of all places). Great herding breed with low drive and a keen, problem solving intelligence.

[Nanno]

If its an eating thing, maybe let them out to browse / eat some hay before you start your walk. Give em 30 min to eat and the try to walk em. Also, find a treat they love and bribe em to follow 

I second, what Dave is suggesting. If your goats do not have much variety in their paddock, they will stuff their faces in the first 20-30 minutes of a hike. At the moment this is especially difficult because the plant live is still very attractive. Let them eat for a while before you start. Also, keep in mind that the mother (and the kid, also) have higher demands due to lactation and growing so they will be especially hungry for good, nutritious plants.

These are very good points! I sometimes forget that not all goats have 24/7 access to lush browse like mine do. Making sure the goat is happy, comfortable, and well-fed before training is always important! Don't let them use that as an excuse to drag you around though. If your goat is on a leash, it should have good manners. But being judicious about when you put the goat on a leash, especially when beginning training, is important for both your tempers.

Sabine, isn't it sometimes too bad we can't clone our favorites? But then again, if we could do that we would never experience the great variety of personalities and attitudes that make goats so wonderful and different to work with! I'm finding that my "lazy" goats are better at driving than the "workaholics". I have some vague theories about why and I find it fascinating.

[Sanhestar]

that is an interesting observation, that the lazy goats are better to drive.

I might try that, as well sometime.

I've lost several goats over the last years that I wish I could clone. None of the ones that follow have filled that particular place, neither in my heart nor in the herd.

But I so often tell people who wonder how I can do "business as usual" after loosing a beloved animal (they often only have one dog or cat and have concentrated all their love and attention on this one pet): the living ones don't care that much about the dead and want to eat, drink and being tended to. So grieving is something that has to be done amongst the daily routines. And as the herd (or pack) settles into the changes, I have to, as well.

[AcanthaRose]

Thanks everyone, that is some great advise! I will try giving them extra alfalfa and grass just before a hike and then the willow switch technique. I'll let you know how it goes!

[Sanhestar]

Goats are browsers so while grass might fill their stomach, it won't satisfy their desire (and physical NEED) for coarse plant material. I've often seen this in my goats when out on pasture. If the pasture is "grass-heavy" they will eat and chew cud and have filled stomachs. But their gaze wanders to the other side of the fence to the brush and nettles, thistles and weeds. And as soon as the gate opens, they rush not for the fresh grass but for the next bush and/or patch of weeds.