Question About Lead Training

[AcanthaRose]

I have been working with Elsie, my year and a half doe, using treats and a willow stick. She is MUCH better at giving to pressure on her halter, but she still could improve. Liesel, her kid, is also improving, even though she follows off lead a lot of the time. She is a little easier to teach because I have been clicker training her from birth, so its easier for me to clearly impress upon her what I want her to do. I have found that it is a bit challenging to wield the stick; when I try to tap Elsie on her backside to get her to speed up, there is no guarantee I will be on target. I have been giving them brakes during the walks to munch on stuff in addition to extra food before we leave. Another thing I have noticed when we are walking around the neighborhood is that if I stop and stand still for a little while, Elsie starts tugging, even if the was doing a great job following me just a minute before. I try not to give in and release her until she calms down, but its a bit of a nuisance if I am trying to talk with a neighbor or something. Liesel will also get bored and tug if she is on a lead and I'm standing still. Its not that they won't stop if I stop, its just that once we're stopped, they do not want to stand still for any length of time. Do any of you have suggestions for teaching them to stand still when I ask them to?

[Sanhestar]

yes, don't expect them to stand still for longer periods of time all at once. Build duration slowly, reward standing still not only with releasing but with treats. If you clicker train, you should know, how.

[Nanno]

I'm glad you're seeing improvement! I believe the most important voice command you can teach is "Whoa". I use the "Whoa" command for everything from trimming hooves, to walking nicely on a leash, to being brushed, saddled, or even just to stand still because I said so. There's nothing worse than a goat that won't stand if you have to adjust his packsaddle on the trail! I start teaching "Whoa" from the very first time I tie a goat to be brushed or trim its hooves. Every time the goat moves without permission I tug once or twice on the halter and say "Whoa!" firmly while making the goat stand where I want him. I give a treat as soon as the feet are still. When leash training, I practice by stopping pretty frequently and saying "Whoa". If they don't stop at the "Whoa" command, stop them physically with the halter and reward as soon as the feet are still. I second what Sabine said about slowly lengthening the duration. Make it just a brief pause as first, then work up to more. They will soon realize that they only get the reward after they stand still, and they will begin to keep their attention on you and wait for that treat instead of tromping on your toes and looking for everything interesting except you.

As for "misfires" with the willow switch, it just takes practice. You should hopefully by now be working away from having to use it. You want a goat that leads without encouragement from behind. One possible reason your goats are not standing still is that they've become accustomed to being flicked with the whip whenever they stop without permission. They need to learn to trust that the whip is only used when they disobey a direct order to walk on, and that the whip will never be used for a "surprise attack". In other words, the whip is only used after you have issued the voice command to "Walk on" and put forward pressure on the halter. Review your training technique and make sure you aren't accidentally skipping straight to the whip without prior commands. It's easy to sometimes cut corners by mistake and not even realize it.

One thing to keep in mind is that goats are bored easily, so what to you seems like a brief moment to talk to a neighbor may seem like an eternity to your young, endlessly curious goats. Some of this over-eager behavior will wear off as they get older and see more of life and realize that there is, in fact, time to stop and smell the roses. Standing still also comes easier as they begin to do real work because they'll see these pauses as a pleasant break to be taken advantage of. Right now they have way more energy than you're demanding of them and it wants to come out somewhere. Sometimes if I think I'm going to talk longer than my goats' attention span can handle, I'll tie them to something away from me so we don't get on each other's nerves. Try to find that balance between making your goat respect and obey your commands and demanding too much too soon. Also try scratching and petting your goat while you're standing still. Some goats will stand for ages as long as they're being scratched. Good luck!

[hihobaron]

Hello all
I will fall back on some of my equine training in the post here.
================
Forgive me in advance for saying Horse.
#1 All of the post are good.
#2 When I am starting a young horse to lead or lunge stay at the shoulder.
#3 Use the whip (It is a extension of your arm) NOT something to inflict pain. I like a 4 foot one. So I can get around "BEHIND" the animal. Yes , they will jump forward.
A quick rotation of your wrist and the whip becomes a barrier to their excessive forward moment. a smack on the Nose or Chest will teach them to stay at heel position fast.
You use the whip for both forward movement and restraint.
#4 I think goats are smart enough to understand the above.
Moving on:
#5 Some horse training methods promote a long end of the the lead rope swinging in a circle like a fan blade to thump the horse on the nose and make it back off. It works.
But I can do the same thing better with a 4 foot whip with a lot less motion to spook the animal.
#6 when I train to lunge and ground drive a horse I position myself on a diagonal behind the should and out of kicking range for the first few lessons I let them think I am "Chasing " them and YES I carry a 12 foot lash whip when doing this kind of training. Then bring in the both verbal and body language commands.
Use the whip to keep them on course and out from me the BIG thing is Stay behind the should.
One of the other things I do is when I stop them on the lunge line I always call them to center and drag the lash of the whip all over their body so it is NOT a fear reaction when they hear the pop close to them, it is just to get their attention.
========================
Standing:
My working Goatsete and Sam will stand as long as there is a chance for a cookie or to goatafy (City Folk
I got very lucky with Pete and Sam being well mannered, Pet me Scratch me types
That comes from lots of handling that the goats enjoy.
But it is the Personalty of the goat itself and upbringing.
Goat Personality you get like a deal of the cards in a Poker Game.
If they don't have a good personality/people oriented all they are good for is Freezer Camp.
hihobaron Blizzard,Fuzzy,Pete, Sam and the Troops in SC

[Sanhestar]

I'm sorry I was so short with my reply earlier - I was on the way out and realise that I should have taken the time later to reply.

Anyway - failing to response in detail kept me thinking about your problems and made me anticipate this find - from the horse world - much more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7jWgWHZCPY

Also check out the video no. 5 about the panic system.

In goats, and I found especially in very small groups (no more then three animals), the tendency to be afraid outside of familiar surroundings is very easily triggered. Goats are herd animals and live in groups. They take comfort from living in that group and the safety in numbers.

In your case you might think that you have two goats while at the moment you have one goat and her kid, placing the mother in the very stressfull situation of being solely in charge of her safety and the safety of her offspring without the backup of a herd which would have sentinel animals that keep watch and warn the group and "warrior" animals that would stand between a predator and younger animals.

If it's still available I recommend "The Packgoat" in which the author describes five distinct positions (sentinels, leader, a "collector", etc.) within a herd structure. Your goat has to fill all five positions.

Different from horses, goats will not spook and run, they will freeze when something arouses their suspicion and then decide wether or not to sprint a short distance (preferably to higher ground) for a better defenseable position. If you like, watch this clip from the BBC series "Life" about how a week-old ibex kid escapes a fox (you have to let the video run for a few minutes but it's well worth it).

https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/vie...ubian-Ibex

I believe that the video shows very clearly the way goats defend themselves: they head for higher ground and then "face-off" the predator. In a group you would see the same short sprint and then the facing-off by the group forming a circle, older bucks on the outside, younger and low-ranking animals on the inside.

OK, making the connection to the fear and panic system described in the horse videos. Goats - as all mammals - have the same neuropathways in their brain but they express these emotions a bit differently. They can't afford to flee headless because in their original environment that would kill them faster than any predator. But this doesn't mean that the systems aren't triggered by similar environmental cues.

I have also found that horses and goats very clearly understand the concept of a fence - a border to a territory in which they are safe. Moving outside the fence will highten the stress level unless the animal has learned that interesting and rewarding things happen outside. They are also on a much higher level of alertness the smaller the group is. I have therefore almost stopped to take out less than three animals in a packstring. Two can be fine but if you have a goat that has a personality that is easily spooked, two don't work very well.

I think that you are on a good way with your goats but need to consider that your goat mummy still has a hightened stress level when being outside with you and the kid. The kid is easier to train because it still relies on her mother and you to keep her safe.

When anxious, either standing still = freezing or moving aliviates the anxiety. Your goats - depending on their level of training - when being out with you and don't stand still are either eager to go and explore and are fussing because of that (excitement also needs to move) or want to go back to the safe environment of barn and paddock after a walk which is still triggering the fear and or panic system at some level and therefore can't stand still.

For teaching them to stand and wait I would observe them when leaving and coming back, looking for signs of stress release: head lowering, deep breaths and start the training to stand still at THAT distance. This can be in the beginning just a few meters away from the paddock doors.

But an animal that is anxious (or over excited) can't learn. You might be able to correct it - deepening a state that is referred to as "learned helplessness" - but you can't teach it the behaviour you want.

Without having seen your goats and you I can only speculate that the mothers "inability" to be clicker trained is also related to her mental state. You can't teach with positive reinforcement when the brain is set up for fear/excitement. You need to get the mother to a place (mentally and geographically, meaning a real place on/near your estate) where she is still able to learn.

And yes, you can use a whip to move her forward and you can use the whip or a swirling rope to restrain that forward movement. You will get results because any animal will move away from pain. And this will be the only thing the animal will have learned - to move away from a painful stimulus and to no longer show the behaviour that has caused the pain. As you mentioned that you clicker train the younger goat I decided to write about some of the background you need to know when clicker training which, I know, is controversal to common training methods.

So, not wanting the let you hang. here are a few ideas how I would teach them:

- Start at a place where the animal can learn = is calm and responsive

- giving to pressure: apply the lightest pressure possible and WAIT. The first instance you see the IDEA of giving into the pressure - click and treat. DON'T escalate the pressure. This is like shouting to a person that can't understand you because he or she doesn't speak your language. Shouting will not give him/her the vocabulary to understand you.

- when you click the idea = the first muscle action you will soon be able to click for a more pronounced reaction like a weight shift, then a lifting of the foot, than a step. From horse training I have learned that it is important that you click the LIFTING of the foot, not the putting down of the foot. If you click when the foot comes down you reward the stopping not the moving part of the behaviour.

- click one step forward. When you get this one step every time you ask for it, click for two steps, then for three, four, and so on.

- standing still: after having your goats taught how to move forward you have to teach them to stand still. Click for standing still for a second (count 1/1000), then for two seconds, and so on. Again, teach at a place were they CAN stand still.

- you might also want to teach stepping back although asking a goat to step back hasn't the same psychological effect than it has on horses. Stepping back in horses is a more yielding behaviour than in goats where stepping back is part of the behaviour seen in fights for rank/head butting games.

- I would teach the goats to target (do you know how?). You can teach them to a moving target which will give you a way to teach forward movement and to a stationary target (which can be a fence post or a gate or also the famous ground tying = targeting to the rope on the ground) which will give you several ways to teach standing still.

- when you have moving forward and standing still established as basic behaviours, install different cues for each. For moving forward you might have used so far giving to pressure. If you have established targeting you have a second cue, the target. Now install a verbal cue (come, walk) on top of either giving to pressure or targeting. Same with standing still. Make sure that you give the new cue first, then the old cue a second later and click/treat as soon as you see the wanted behaviour (transferring of cues).

Give time to respond AND give a choice. I have found that pressuring for a behaviour even with positive reinforcement will not give you the same results then when you add the CHOICE into the mix. This doesn't mean that you let the goats run all over you. You will have to set up the training situation in a way that the animal can succeed by choosing the action you want. But it can also choose to refuse the action and therefore not earn the treat.

Example:

- giving to pressure: I would set this up in a corner. Walking towards you and into the pressure is the wanted behaviour. The corner will give you control over moving backwards and to one side in an attempt to fight off the pressure but you won't need to increase the pressure to keep control of the position. You can therefore click the first ideo of moving into the pressure but leave the choice (standing still or moving towards you) to your goat.

When she is more advanced and has a firm understanding of the pressure cue while you are outside she might freeze up. Give her the cue to walk forward and if she can't/won't respond promptly, give her the time she needs to make sure that whatever it is that is bothering her is not life-threatening and that she can answer your cue.

Yes, this in completely contrary to common training and most people will now cry-out: "You can't let her get away with this!" Try to imagine how you feel when you need to figure something out and somebody is pestering you to do something that is contrary to the thing that you need to figure out. You most likely will not be able to do the the thing you're being pestered to do and will either react annoyed or shut down - depending on how you have learned as a child.

For this kind of situation it is helpfull to establish a behaviour that is very easy to do. I have found and other positive reinforcement trainers as well, that asking to target with the nose to your hand is such an easy behaviour. As you have your hand always with you and the animal has to only move its nose a few millimeter (it's that small a behaviour you ask) this is something that they can do even when anxious.

Being able to do this easy behaviour will brake several cycles: the staring, the worrying, the fear and the shutting down. It will develop into a safety blanket because it is so easy to perform = being successfull = earning treats and the brain can move from the FEAR/PANIC system to the positive and rewarding "SEEKER" system = back to learning/responding. The more you reward targeting the more the animal will offer this behaviour in stressfull situation as a way to calm itself.

So, back to the freezing and not responding to your "walk on" cue and how to use the targeting: your goat has seen something that has triggered the Fear System (and they can see so much better than we!) and therefore the behaviour that will decide wether or not flight is necessary. A horse would spook, a goat will freeze and look. You want it to move forward but its brain is still operating in the Fear System and can't perform complex other behaviours. So you ask for targeting nose to hand, placing the hand very close in front of the nose.

Target - nose touch - click and treat. Target - nose touch - click and treat. Do this as closely together as possible, not giving time for the fear system to become active again. Note how the goat is taking the treat. Will she chew it or keep it only in the mouth? If the latter, she is still to anxious to chew/learn. Look how you can take the pressure of the situation away from her: let her walk away, place yourself between her and the perceived danger = get her to a place where she can respond. This implies that you taught the nose-target well enough at home.

Best case scenario: your goat responds to the target and shifts her attention from the danger back to you. Great - this was the first choice you want in that situation. She has decided that working with you is more rewarding than staring at something that worries her. Now check again if she can answer the cue to move forward. Yes? Great, click and treat her! No? No matter, go back to nose-target. Try placing your hand so that she has to move her head away from the danger. See if she can make a small step towards your hand. She can? Great, you got her feet moving again without escalating pressure.

Give the walk-on cue again.

This looks in the beginning like a lot of hassle when instead you can simply drag her along. But as you repeat this over and over the new behaviour = following your request, turning attention towards you will override the connections in her brain that trigger the Fear System. You are giving your goat an alternative behaviour which is more rewarding that being fearfull.

I could go on but I fear that the post is already way too long. So I stop for now.

[hihobaron]

Sanester
Interesting breakdown, clicker training and how a goat brain works.
Thanks for the info
hihobaron, Blizzard,Fuzzy,Pete ,Sam and the Troops in SC

[Nanno]

If it's still available I recommend "The Packgoat" in which the author describes five distinct positions (sentinels, leader, a "collector", etc.) within a herd structure. Your goat has to fill all five positions.

Isn't it true, though, that if you are seen as the "leader," that your goat no longer has to fill all the positions? If they trust you as the leader then they don't have to feel frightened in new situations because they know you would not put them in a position to get hurt. If they do become afraid, their first response should be to run to you for protection.  

And yes, you can use a whip to move her forward and you can use the whip or a swirling rope to restrain that forward movement. You will get results because any animal will move away from pain. And this will be the only thing the animal will have learned - to move away from a painful stimulus and to no longer show the behaviour that has caused the pain.

I take exception to the idea that a whip's purpose is to inflict pain. A whip's purpose is to communicate a command. I agree 100% that you can't teach an animal that is frightened or in pain. He will be more preoccupied with his discomfort than with learning, and if he gets too frightened he may even "shut down" (something my goat Sputnik would do last summer if I so much as made too sudden a movement). I want to make it clear that I never advocate beating an animal with a whip or using a whip on an animal that is frightened or doesn't understand. Most of the time when a whip is first introduced you only have to strike the ground, not the animal, in order to get a response. This is of course a fear response, but I believe there is a place for learning from fear. When a parent tells a baby not to touch a hot stove, usually the child at some point disobeys and touches it anyway out of curiosity. The "punishment" is immediate and the lesson learned is very powerful and lasts for the rest of that person's life. However, this does not mean that the person will be forever afraid of stoves and fire! They simply learned an improper way to handle a stove, and they also learned a lesson about listening to parents. 

Animals in herds also learn from fear. Younger members of a goat herd soon learn (through fear of being butted, hooked, or bitten) that they must not get in the way of the older members, take their food, climb on them while napping, or other disrespectful behavior. The young goats do not "shut down" or get in a state of "learned helplessness" because they've been threatened with negative stimuli. They simply learn a different behavior. I think when we train animals it is perfectly natural for them to learn both from positive and negative stimuli, and as humans we need to train ourselves how to properly apply and balance these tools in a way that is respectful of our animals and how they learn.  

For example, when handling a whip, it is important that the animal learns that they will never be struck unfairly with it, nor that they will ever be struck cruelly with it (i.e. to hit so hard it inflicts more than a brief sting). If an animal flees because they see you with a whip in hand, then you are not using the whip correctly. When you do things like drive or ride a horse sidesaddle the whip becomes an indispensable tool for communication both for forward and sideways movement, but this doesn't mean the horse has to fear it any more than he should fear leg or seat pressure from its rider. When driving, if you rely solely on the reins to turn, you actually put the animal in an uncomfortable position because you are bending his neck and body when he needs to keep them straight and cross his legs to turn comfortably with the shafts or pole interfering with his natural arc. The whip becomes a tool to help the reins by cueing the animal to move his body over so that he doesn't over-bend. Eventually he will do this without help from the whip, but in the beginning the whip is there to teach him how to move properly so that he doesn't feel trapped by the vehicle. I find when training novice drivers that their biggest mistake is in rein/whip handling. They have a misguided view that the whip is there to inflict pain, so they rely solely on the reins to turn the animals. When the animals turn their heads but keep going straight, the novice driver pulls even harder on the reins, getting the animals into an over-bent position from which it is now almost impossible for them to actually turn since their weight is now falling over in the wrong direction. When I direct the driver to touch the animal on the outside hip to cue him to move his body over, they almost always say, "But I don't want to hit your animal with the whip!" They don't understand that the whip is there as an aid to communication--not a torture device with which to flog disobedient animals into submission.     

Because the whip is there to help the animal become more comfortable and happy in his job, it is vital that he learn beforehand what the whip is for--to cue a "move away" response. There is nothing inherently wrong with a "move away" cue, and these are always taught naturally in the animal kingdom by some kind of negative (fear) stimulus. A mare that charges and bites a younger member of the herd to make him run away has only to put her ears back and bare her teeth the next time to get the same response (still a fear stimulus but much lower intensity). The younger herd member doesn't shut down and melt into a state of "learned helplessness" because the mare threatened him. He simply learns to stay away from Boss Mama's dinner! So while I appreciate that we want to use a lot of reward and positive reinforcement in training, I think it's important to realize that punishment and negative reinforcement hold important and perfectly natural places as well. In the case here where I recommend the use of a whip to move a reluctant goat forward, the owner should soon be able to lower the intensity and frequency of of that negative stimulus to achieve the same response. The goat will not get into a state of learned helplessness because it is being offered a choice--move forward or stand in an uncomfortable place where the whip won't stop tapping. If the goat chooses to move forward, the whip tapping stops and she's learned a behavior. Follow up with a reward and the behavior is learned even better! I see positive and negative as the yin yang of training.

That was a lot longer than intended. My apologies. 

[hihobaron]

Nanno
Your Dissertation of above That applies to both horses,goats,and People.
Is just right, I have used the above for years with my horses, and with the same idea of you just use it (wip) as a gentile extension of your arm. Move a hind quarter over,teach a horse to move away from tap tap. ETC.
I'll take it one step further.
When Training to Lunge I use a 12 foot lash to both keep the horse out on the end of line and with forward movement.
Teach the basic commands.Walk Trot Whoa. All the training works into ground driving.
One thing I do when lunging training is always bring the horse to center and stop them.
Then just a gently flip of the lash over them a few times Barrel,Neck,Flank and slowly drag it off. Use the wipstock and rub it all over their sides and neck/flanks.
Then send them back out to lunge in the other direction. ( this is were you teach Gee and Haw)
Yes, if they start cutting corners or not holding gait. I will Just give the lash a roll out into the dust mid body and they learn to stay out to the distance I want to work them at. If the horse is a Habitual Short Cutter I will go to the air and POP the whiplash close to their side. A very Spoiled horse I will when needed put a sting in his ribs.
It only takes a couple lessons each direction and I have good working Lunge line horses.
========================
Forward Motion:
#1 To Start; Stay Behind the point of the shoulder and to the side out of kicking range.
At first let the animal think you are chasing them, but you have a lead and halter/collar on them to control them.
#2 Have them used to the whiplash in a gentile manner on their body.
#3 I usually step back and encourage forward  motion by flopping the whiplash on the ground behind them.
#4 If they spook a little you pull them into a circle around you.
#5 Stay behind and out from their shoulder.Keep going.
#6 Stop them bring to center, reward, drape the lash across them several times send them back out and make them work in the opposite direction.
stop then bring them in to center.
#7 If they turn and face you a pop of the whiplash short of their nose will convince them that they do not need to face you. Then give them a pop on the rear.
#8 Step Back to make sure you are behind the point of the shoulder. They will move forward.
#9  I like a long whip for arena work,
#10 I have both livestock skills and show skills with a whip. So for the most part I know were the end of the lash is going every time I use it. I NEVER use a whip as punishment on a animal in training, But Have been tempted to use one on some people that abuse animals.
Happy Trails
hihobaron Blizzard,Fuzzy,Pete,Sam and the Troops in SC.

[Sanhestar]

Nancy, Hihobaron

when you use the whip SOLELY as a communication tool, you can NEVER give a painful stimulus with it. A smack will cause pain and a brief sting is also a painful stimulus - just try it on yourself. After the first time the pain was inflicted, the whip will carry forever the threat that the painful stimulus can be repeated.

Rubbing a horse (or goat) with the whip stick and then later using the whip to smack it is just betraying the trust. Look closely to the eyes and mimic of a horse that makes this experience for the first time and you will see it. It will maybe just a tightening around the eyes or the nose and the horse might get a "sullen" expression.

I realise that it's uncomfortable to hear that.

One can train with negative reinforcement, it is how we all have been taught and trained as children (and maybe therefore we don't view it as cruel) but one should also recognise which systems in the brain he/she triggers with that kind of training.

Negative reinforcement produces animals that do as they are told even to the point of self-destruction but it will kill in almost every case the creativity and problem-solving abilities of the animal.

Positive reinforcement teaches animals that it's worth to search for a solution to the problem and that communication is going both ways. The positively trained animal will have an opinion about what it's been asked and that opinion can be "no, thank you!" Because of this possibility one on the "mantras" of positive reinforcement ist "always set the animal up for success" = beeing able to say yes (without the threat of "Do it or else" that a whip or a sharp halter/bit carries) and earn the treat.

[Nanno]

I actually do not rub an animal with the whip unless he is unduly frightened of it because I agree that this could be confusing to a green one. He needs to respect it, not treat it like a toy. When first teaching with a whip I want whip movement and contact to always mean something. Once they are more experienced then they seem to lose fear of the whip naturally without me having to deliberately train them not to fear it. As an example, when the whip lash gets away from me on a windy day and flies into the horse by mistake, the green one jumps but the experienced one doesn't. Why? Because the older horse has learned that the whip itself is not to be feared and that my body language, voice commands, and eye contact in conjunction with the whip are what lends it significance.

Pushing an animal to the point of self-destruction is not something I advocate, nor does it work well in terms of training. As a recent example, Phil and I have been working to get our driving goats to walk calmly past some large barking dogs. No amount of tempting with treats is going to induce them to go near the threat because no reward in the world is worth risking their lives (as they see it). I gave a firm "Go forward!" command with voice and several whip taps on the harness. I did not wish to induce pain because this would only multiply the fear of the dogs. But rather than choose to obey me, the goats turned tail and ran the other direction. Now, at this point a bad trainer would try beating the goats to force them past the dogs, or getting out and physically dragging them past. But I think this is where patience and understanding are in order. All the goats needed was reassurance, so Phil walked a little ahead and to the side between the goats and the dogs to show them that he was not afraid and that he was willing to put himself in the most vulnerable position. Soon the boys were in a state of mind to be able to accept treats in the presence of the barking dogs and I fully expect that our next lesson there will be much smoother. Had I given the boys the option to flee the situation, I believe they would have done so and learned all the wrong lessons, the most important one being that they can't trust us. That said, it is imperative that we don't overface our animals with a problem they are not ready for. We knew they had the training, trust, and experience to handle a scary situation of this calibre, even if it took a bit of hand-holding at first.

The biggest problem I see with letting an animal choose to disobey is that this can be very dangerous for you and him if one day he decides that he'd rather whack you with his horns than take that nasty worm medicine, or he'd rather kick you and stomp on your foot than stand nicely to get his hooves trimmed. At some point no amount of bribing with treats is enough to persuade him to make the "right" choice. It's a very stupid kid who is fooled into liking the orthodontist just because he is offered a piece of candy to go there. At some point, the kid is probably going to have to be told he must sit in that chair and behave "or else!" because there is honestly nothing in the world you can offer him that is better than not going at all. I was a very picky eater as a child so I had to do a lot of eating "or else". The reward of getting dessert (positive reinforcement) was never enough to persuade me to eat my meal, so the consequence of going to bed hungry and having to face the same meal served cold for breakfast was applied. It was amazingly effective. I only ever ate one cold supper for breakfast. I was afraid of this punishment for the rest of my childhood, but it did not make me afraid of food. Nor does a properly applied sting from a whip make an animal forever fear it. If that were the case, I would never be able to drive cattle with a whip while riding my horse, Jet. He's been "stung" with a whip a few times in his life, but I can swing that lash over his head and crack it around his ears because he knows it's not directed at him and is not a fearful object in itself. He trusts me to handle the whip responsibly. If I direct the whip at him, he knows what to do. If I direct it at someone else he knows to disregard it.

I guess to sum up I am not put off by the idea of using the fear pathways in the brain as part of training. They are perfectly natural for both humans and animals alike. A person who uses only positive or only negative stimuli to train is using half a toolbox. You can probably get the job done, but it will be a longer and more difficult job than if you used both, and the end result will be less satisfying for everyone concerned.